hangforum.com - The Archive

Currently there are some speculations and rumors on the forum at handpan.org about PANArt refusing the tuning of Hanghang.

User barrymason wrote: "Also met up last night with Nick, the hang player with the Portico Quartet. He told me that the Hanghaus has refused to re-tune their instruments because he plays with mallets. [...] Will I now be refused the re-tuning service as I let young adults on the autistic spectrum play on my hang? OR the fact that I run workshops around festivals introducing drum techniques which can be applied to any percussion instrument, including the Hang?"

After this post other users added other speculations. User omrhythm thought, "that half of the Hanghang in existence are no longer allowed back at the Hanghaus for retune." He also presumed that "Portico was probably denied a retune also for playing with other instruments, for busking and making money with the hang, and for whatever other reasons they can come up with." He warned other forum users "that if you say the 'wrong thing' here, that 'perhaps' you will be denied a retune." In his point of view it seemed "that if you have an ego whatsoever, then you will be denied a retune. If you are a humble monk living in a mountain cave, perhaps you can get a retune, but only if your sherpa doesn't call it a Drum. Then you are screwed." User rptalk2me thought another reason could be that Portico Quartet posted videos on YouTube and user Sounds-Like-Me reasoned: "I always had a hope that they would prove to be more forgiving but now that little hope has been evaporated."

I think instead of spreading rumors and speculations we should try to understand the real reasons, why PANArt refused Portico a retuning. In my point of view this really happened, but the quoted reason "because he plays with mallets" isn't exact. I personally know about two other cases of Hang players who where told by PANArt that they will not tune their instruments any longer. Recently Felix Rohner wrote to me in an e-mail about those Hang players who periodically visit the Hangbauhaus to let tune there Hanghang. He told about how he spoke with them and explained to them that too hard playing and the use of mallets are the reasons that they need a retuning so often. He also explained to them that the Hang isn't applicable for such a hard handling and he asked them not to treat their Hanghang in this destructive way any longer.

Knowing this background my conclusion is: The refusing of a tuning is not a punishment of "false" opinions or actions like posting YouTube videos or anything else. There is one specific motive for refusing a retuning by PANArt: If you play your Hang in a destructive way and you periodically visit PANArt to ask for a retuning, and if Felix or Sabina told you that your hard playing is the reason for the destruction of your Hang and they ask you to stop the destructive handling, and you don't care and continue to destroy the tuning of your instrument, it is likely that you will be refused the next time.

Ix

As a reply to your "quotes" from the Handpan forum:-

I cant defend others on the "other" forum but I can say that the Portico affair is just one of the reports of Panart's stance with regards to retuning. I have heard "direct reports" of people being criticised for playing "music" ! and also for being too critical with there demands for the accuracy of the tuning of there HangHang.
Ix shame Panart are not able to express there views themselves "directly" and you have to be the defender of there position !

Hi,

thank you Ixkeys.

Anybody could post anything on the internet very easy.
Some people seems to forget, that wrong informations spread very fast.
It seems to me, that a few people are interestet to discredit Panart and they found a platform for their intention.

What should Panart do? They build the Hang for playing with the hand and not with mallets. If an player hit the Hang to hard again and again and it goes for that reason out of tune again and again............
Should they tune this Hang again and again and again?
How they will feel if the player dont care about their asking to play the Hang within the limit?
If an player is so ignorant and hit the Hang out of tune even though Panart speak with him about the limit from the Hang, it is his own fault if Panart refuse a tuning some day.

I know that some people use every chance to dis Panart. This is sad.
I hope and know that a lot of people see through what people have in mind and what is the background from the persons who spread wrong informations.

Greetings
Frank

Sounds-Like-Me, it isn't my target to defend PANArt but to stop rumors.

I only know about cases with the reason I reported in my post.

Do you exactly know about cases when other reasons than playing the hang destructively were the only reasons for refusing a tuning by PANArt?

Ix

Lets just say Panart seem to be reluctant to do a retune for Hang even if the player is "not" rough with it, has "not" been to them before for a retune but wants to have an "accurate" tuning !

And with regards to "rumour spreading" I am offended you even say this as you can perhaps remember our contact on the old forum we only had the greatest of respect for each others way of communicating.

If you are still in doubt then I may be able to connect you with those who have had the experiences, shame that it has to be proven though, I pride my self as an honest person !

Hi,

is their any example from a player where a tuning was refused because of another reason as Ix posted @sounds like me?

It is a little bit of topic, but I hope anybody understand the reason why I want to tell you now a short story.
I was in the Hanghouse a few times and on my last visit there was a busker from Barcelona.
Felix found very clear words about the "scheme of life" from this Hangplayer. Something sound maybe a little bit hard for the busker, but i know that Felix only was worry about the future from this young man.
It seems that the only purpose in life from this busker was to sit from morning to evening, every day on the streets from Barcelona and play hang for money.
Every day.
I could imagine, that this busker has a big problem some day if he find out that he has nothing more done with his life.
To play every day hours and hours the same melodys on the Hang on loud places makes you some day crazy. And some day you wake up and know that all the applause was only for the beautifull instrument on your lap. And without this instrument you cant do anything. You are lost.
A bad situation and a very big responsibility for Panart.

Panart was very hospitality. They tuned the Hang from this player and we sit a long time together with good food and red wine.
They also listen carefully to the busker.
It is wrong from Panart to point the risks from using the Hang in this way?
I remember, that Felix meet hundrets of people every year and that he has a long experience of life also in the world of steelpan.
I had the feeling, that the busker was thankfull at the end.

I could imagine that an casual listener of this conversation would go home and post on a forum: "Panart dont like busking in generally...... "
But this was not the topic. So, it is wise to see the complete story.

I hope people read this with a little bit "good will". Hard to find good words in english but I hope the "central idea" from this story is understandable.


Frank

Hi Sounds-like-me,
it's not a question of respect or honesty. To say it clearly: I don't think you are spreading lies. I quoted you in the introducing post because you added a specific aspect to the discussion: That it is a matter of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is an option, if someone acted in a way that causes the whish of revenge or punishment. But I can't see that not to tune a Hang is meant as revenge or punishment by PANArt.

I got to know three reasons that was important in a number of cases when PANArt refused a tuning:

1) When another tuner had worked at the instrument without success and made it worse, or when the destruction of the Hang was too extensive (remember the Hang with the soldered Ding that was later in an Ebay auction. Or there are several cases when persons cut the glued half shells.)

2) When a Hang was sold with profit.

3) The reason I wrote about in my introducing post in this topic.

What really happened in detail in the case you mentioned, when someone wanted an "accurate" tuning?

Ix

There is another aspect of misunderstanding:

Two hours ago Gothang wrote in the discussion at handpan.org: "The members of the Portico Quartet [...] have spoken nothing but reverentially about them and their creations in the interviews I've seen."

It seems that some people really think, that it is necessary to speak reverentially about PANArt to jolly them along (to be clear: Gothang does not belong to them).

I occasional noticed in forum discussions that people who felt criticized by PANArt or were refused to buy a Hang began to speak referentially. But Felix and Sabina are not Kings or Lords like in past ages, who want to be revered by their subjects otherwise they punish them.

If there are factual problems, that factual problems have to be resolved. This cannot be superseded by reverence.

Ix

Yet who has ordained the mission of reverence upon you to indulge into other arenas of conversation and set facts straight for the world? If it were here, it would be understandable for you to go to lengths to ensure, above opinion, that all that is written, is in fact, truth.

But by the very act of bringing the conversation you have eavesdropped upon, here, to further your mission of truth, beyond opinion, for those that may, or may not, have ordained you to do so, shows to what degree you choose to follow your path. Despite separation, and obvious differences of opinion, you find it within your range of responsibilities to engage, from the outside no less, and disseminate what you believe to be truth or not.

As I have tried to temper opinion myself, on this very subject, and within that very thread, I can honestly say that there is balance, fairness and temperance within our own discussions. Why you choose to draw your own opinions here, as opposed to where the source is, may be because you fear the reprisal of "a few". And perhaps presenting your "truth" here, separately, you feel more secure in presenting your thoughts. Fair enough.

Back to point. In regards to "reverence". Some would consider your mission of truth to be a form of reverence within itself. We are all, ALL, allowed passions, and strong opinions connected to them. We are allowed to bring an outside perspective to situations that perhaps need an outside perspective, or more than one, to bring balance to opinion. The actions of the makers obviously have a profound affect on many, whether they have asked for it or not. There is a certain responsibility, in my opinion, that is attached to such connection. Are you the conduit to disseminate what is truth from PANArt? I ask honestly, without sarcasm attached. Should we regard your thoughts as reflecting those of the makers? Should we not react to what is happening within the culture that is surrounding all of these instruments?

Or should we just let......it.......be.......?

Where does the mission, for any of us end?

I for one do have empathy for the makers. But also for all of those souls that have been touched so profoundly by them, and their creations.

Best regards,

-Danny

Hi,

@Danny.

I am also post my thought on this forum about the topic on handpan.org.
Why? Because I was banned from the old Hangforum. I was banned, because I post open my opinions and my opinions are from time to time not comfortable for a few peoples.
So, I dont think I am invited or welcome to post my opinions about those topics on your forum.
I was on holiday at the time where Werner ask special questions about my person on handpan.org and it was YOU who closed this thread. Another example how open and free your discussions are. Only so long until anybody ask "inconvenient" questions.
But, this is only an minor issue.

So I can understand Ixkeys, why he post his opinions on this place.

I think Ixkeys cant speak FOR Panart. But I know that he speak WITH Panart. And this has for me more importance as a few rumors from people who are obviously to be out to do damage the reputation from Panart.
The most postings on handpan.org forum about Panart are negative rant.

Felix and Sabina are far away from unfairness. But what should they do if people ignore the limits?

And again! Please tell me only one person where a tuning was refused because of another reason.

Frank

Hi,

@Frank - If you want, I will release your ban. The fact is, you were banned for constant, what you call uncomfortable opinions. As that is all that you seemed to have to contribute to the community. If you find it necessary to quote, copy and paste, to prove your point, feel free, it is your prerogative. But that is not what the subject is, but i addressed it, as you felt the need to do so.

The thread with Werner was closed after several days of discussion that lead to the same thoughts being shared over and over. Participants were invited to continue with less constructive conversation via PM. But I also invited any with pertinent opinions on the matter to start another thread, if they felt so inclined. None did. I am sorry that I did not receive the memo in regards to you being on holiday. As you were not able to participate in the discussion, because of your ban, I did not think to keep the thread open long enough for you to add to it. Again, there is an open invitation for both your ban to be lifted, and for anyone that is interested, and has anything constructive to add, to open a new thread.

Yes, speaking FOR PANArt and WITH PANArt are two separate things. Thank you for acknowledging that, be it for Ix. (through you?) And yes, some rants ARE negative. Because what is happening in Bern IS affecting some people negatively. And yes, they ARE allowed to voice said frustrations. Whether it is because people are refused a Hang because of certain ideals, or refused a retune because of monetary exchanges, or chosen style of play, or lack of education or understanding, or just a general feeling of frustration in not being able to acquire, play, or be considered for what many have gained as a passion, people are going to get frustrated, and they are going to voice it. We can quote facts, or in this case, share parts of conversations with the Hangmakers, to help set certain facts straight. but that does not always remedy the frustration.

THe hangmakers have reached a fork in their road and have chosen a path. Not all will be able to follow. We can't condemn those that aren't chosen, or can't or are frustrated because it seems to be a different PANArt from even a short few years ago.

I appreciate you coming to Ix's defense Frank. But defense isn't called for.

And as for examples of people that have been denied tuning, I am not the one to ask, as I am not the one posting examples. But I have heard, second hand from individuals that have been in contact with some people that have had this experience. Better to ask them though.

Best regards,

-Danny

Frank, I actually just checked the status of your "Funky" account on HAndPan.org . If ever there was a ban, it was only in word, as your account is active. Perhaps if you had tried to log on and post your opinion, you would be aware of this.

Best regards,

-Danny

Hi,

@Danny. I wrote that I was banned on Giddas old forum and why I should dont respect this Ban for the new forum?
It is a little bit odd to beliefe that there is a difference.
I dont want to post anything on handpan.org. Dont worry. I dont want to be a killjoy and I dont want to confuse people with factual issues.

Frank

But Frank, I was not the one to setup your account ON the new forum. This action could only come from yourself. Again, you are invited to share your thoughts. If you consider yourself to be a killjoy, it is by your own label. But others will share their opinios as well. And, as for the most part, it is Ix who presents the facts. You are merely there to re-iterate his words, it seems. Even between the two of you, Ix has a clearer, more controlled way of presenting his facts.

But this is just an observation.

Yes, this is true.


Frank

Hi Danny,
to present my facts clear and controlled: The reason why I put my thoughts here and not at handpan.org was, that I decided not to register at handpan.org. And I decided not to register at handpan.org after the heated discussion at the end of the hang-music forum. I learned from this discussion that I made it worse not better when I joined the discussion. Too many users receive my opinions as a "dictator's" "mission of truth" that has to be fighted. In such an atmosphere it is impossible to argue reasonable. Each argument will be received as a new act of aggression. It is wise not to join this circle.

What I wrote in this topic is not the "truth". It is my conclusion (I used this term deliberately) I drew from the information I know. I thought it was necessary to post my thoughts as a corrective to the speculations based on a very thin information that Portico's Hanghang weren't tuned "because he played with mallets".

Ix

curently working in India at the moment but heard via the grapevine that things were taking a turn for the worst again... can't be long but figured "to tune or not tune that is the question", right? but it is also the right of PANart to refuse a retune and there is nothing anyone can do... however I would hope their reason for refusal was Justified... which i'm sure it is.

I Agree there maybe needs to be some guidlines as to why you will not be allowed a retune but from what I can gather, and please correct me if I am wrong the reasons are listed below, if there any more then please do add to that list and lets create the definitive list here and now:

Reason 1) Second hand sales for profit
Reason 2) Continued abuse of your Hang after warnings from PANart
Reason 3) Bad mouthing, name calling and general tom foolery around the PANart name.. to be honest if someone was bad mouthing you would you help them out in the future??? probably not.
Reason 4) ??? anyone's guess but it's likely to be peoples speculation and chinese whispers leading people to believe they will not get a retune and as such I can only think of 3 reasons???

If anyone has any real hard evidence to prove the above to be wrong, or evidence to prove there are other reasons to why you would not get a retune then please do share... otherwise all I hear and see is yet more speculation that is discrediting PANart for no good reason.

Gotta go... work to do, damn its hot out here

Peace from the east

Kelly

I agree with you, Kelly.

But I think, there is only one "formal" guideline: Your "Reason 1". This is stated explicitly in PANArts repair information.

The other issues are in my point of view personal cases. As a Hang player you have to consider that the instrument you play is not a steel pan. Steel pans are made to be regularly tuned. Therefor a steel pan player needs a tuner. If he has no tuner he has a problem. Therefor he will look for a tuner and ask him whether he will tune his instrument regularly.

The Hang is made to be stable and not to be tuned regularly. But this needs an adequate handling by the player. The player needs a tuner in cases of accidents and in special situations. PANArt is ready to help in this cases. But if the player thinks, he can handle his instrument in a way that it needs regular tuning there is no automatic tuning service. The player should ask PANArt: Will you tune my Hang if I bring it yearly or every half year? And they will tell him. Not to ask is just risky because you have no tuning service contract.

Ix

Hello guys, regarding this topic about a month ago I saw a guy playing in Barcelona one first generation hang hang with mallets and jazz brushes :-( ... that hang was an aeolian model completely out of tune :-( .

There's another street band here using hang hangs with fingers and sometimes with brushes and other stuff check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE5I0kFEb1E

Another example would be this (just check the DING surface of the hang that is in the floor) it is rush? talcum powder? white paint over the hang?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVz6p7bN ... re=related

I completely understand F&S if they won't want to re-tune a hang again and again specially if you play with mallets? bought a steel pan if want to do that . I feel really sad when I see people in Barcelona literally destroying their hangs using inappropriate techniques or making strange paint jobs over the hang surface :-( .

Regards,

Massimiliano