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The Helmholtz resonance is a difficult topic. So I'm not astonished that you wasn't aware of a clear and strong resonance. When I played the Bells in my home I was able to get a clear and strong Helmholtz resonance. When I played the same (!) Bells a few days ago in the Hangbauhaus I couldn't. The same with my Hang. Sometimes I'm not able to get a clear Helmholtz resonance.

What's the problem? I think, there are two aspects: Firstly you have to adjust the Helmholtz resonance an octave under the Ding to get it strong an clear. This is a matter of resonance between your lap and the Hang. And sometimes this resonance doesn't work. You are not sensitive enough or something like this. It seems sometimes it is just not the right time to play the Hang. The second aspect I was adverted to by Felix Rohner when I worked at the Helmholtz article in the Hang Lexikon (by now only German) and asked him for some additional hints: The deep frequency of the Helmholtz resonance must be reflected in order to be heard by the player and listeners. Therefor the better the reflection is the stronger the helmholtz resonance sounds: It depends on the room and your position in the room how strong and clear the helmholtz resonance can be heard.

Ix

P. S. Of course, I'm a hero! Felix and Sabina are gods! And pigs can fly.

@Werner, I'm a Chinese guy whom discover the Hanghang a year ago, and want to obtain a Hanghang eagerly, and got the refuse letter, and learnd what Felix and Sabina have done in the last 10 years on this forum, and find out there is no chance to even touch a Hanghang in China, and just collect every Hanghang vids on youtube. Just a Nobody.

I'm one of hundreds of thousand Hanghang admirers. I wish Hanghang will inspirit the whole world.

Glad to know you guys

@Funky
I understand.
But I have a feel that Luis has a great ambition, He won't make BElls only for profits.
I have faith in him.

Sorry to blablablablabla.From now on I'll shut up, just to learnd.

Mr. frazzledfozzle I really loved your comment about my balls and here's another post to show you how my balls are in the right place .

I understood after two years and testing "In real life" and not by forums or youtube experiences that the BELLS quality today is POOR. At the same time I really love the hang as a sound sculpture, musical instrument or any other way to name it… this not change my point of view in some facts regarding how works PANART and their methods to communicate with people.

At the same time I will not spend 1.400 € for a such of instrument that doesn't match in 100% with my expectative, also if Luis knows that I respect their efforts to get something out with the same or high quality than hang (for me right know is not the situation). Know because lot of people just life to talk bullshits without any technical or scientist base take a look of this… Mr. frazzledfozzle, this also works for the all user on this forum:

1. HALO: "FOR ME" this attempt or hang imitation is really poor. If you want to buy a GAS TANK sound instrument that imitates the hang shell, you must choose one of this. I also discussed this facts with KYLE, you can ask him Mr. frazzledfozzle how my balls are so big when I said to him that his instrument SUCKS for me.

2. CAISA: I tested over 3 of this SCAMPANS in the Tokobongo shop in Barcelona. About the look and fell of the instrument and the sound quality I just can say = NO COMMENTS. This instrument "FOR ME" most die in the metal instruments market.

3. BALI HAND PANS: Not tested in real life, so I can't judge this instrument at the moment. Make a judgment looking you tube videos is not good, specially if you must invest between 600 and 800 € for one of those.

4. SPACE DRUMS: I tested one 2 weeks ago. This imitation of the MAMA-HANG with more comfortable dimensions doesn't works for me. Need more evolution and AGAIN I really don't feel comfortable playing this hand pan instrument.

5. DISCO ARMONICO: OHHH YEAh!!! another CRAPY and SHITTY imitation of the hang… the creator is also trying to sell one of this for about 500 € on EBAY.it. People who bought this "FOR ME" must go to jail.

6. BELLSDRUM: You Mr. frazzledfozzle can confirm with Luis that I sent him a letter to remove my name and position on the bells list, that was #192. I also explained to Luis all of my reasons to do it, and again this attempt to copy the hang doesn't work for me. I'm also a graphic designer and I'm not agree about how Luis is trying to imitate the name of his company (BELLART - PANART) the dimensions, colors etc. As a graphic designer I really HATE when other people copy my work or the work of any other designer without any new improvement or different vision. The price it's also a kind of joke>>>> 1.400 €!!!!!!!.

Finally, I didn't have the opportunity as Frank or IX to meet the hang makers face to face and discuss all about my feelings, frustration, doubts and questions or discus about HOW or WHY THEY NOT spend more time to improve some other ways to satisfy the hang hang demand. I got the answer of some of my questions testing those instruments and FOR ME there's nothing more balanced and handcrafted + high quality like a hang at this moment.

So Mr. frazzledfozzle.... Do you think I lost my balls now? Let me know if you have the knowledge to understand all of the facts that I placed on this lines.

Take a shower.

Great post guys

It's been a while since I read a post that taught me so much about "the world of sheet steel sounds"!
Some really important aspects were brought up here, as this has become a "must read" post for everyone who is slightly interested in this matter!

You guys have been blessed I tell you, not only by the knowledge you possess but mainly because of the patience you show!

Kind Regards,
Sérgio

Hey all . I haven't been following the discussion so I did some reading up and thought to leave my thoughts.
I am the lucky owner of Integral Hang #244. Perhaps I'm biased, but I think it's one of the best Hanghang I ever heard .
Recently I bought a BElls. It's quite a high one, and the lower ones with a D bass did sound a bit more balanced / better in sound quality - the statements I make about the BElls mostly apply to my own one.

For me I was, after having my Hang for about 3/4th of a year, next to enjoying playing my Hang I sometimes feeling a bit under the weather playing my Hang for a while. The Integral scale can feel quite heavy.. Also, I was playing the same things and was kind of 'stuck' in this mood. I sent PANArt a letter saying IF they ever get a Zhi Diao (major sounding pentatonic F) back to them, I would really love to be considered for this major beauty. I know it was a long shot and I never got a reaction, which is quite logical and perfectly acceptable.

As much as I love the deepness and dynamic range the (& my) Hang has, and it is very suited to meditation-type playing, I've always liked to play musically aswell. With 8 notes ofcourse there are a lot of musical limitations. When I was at the HangHaus there was 'only' the Integral scale to choose for me ( which I do love don't get me wrong ). Watching people like Matt Venuti, David Charrier and Manu Delago got me inspired musically and very interested in having more then one Hang. From my contact with Felix & Sabina recently I realized I should give up hope of getting a second Hang from them, and finding someone to part with their Hang for the price they originally paid seems impossible these days. It became clear to me that I should give up hope of having another Hang. Also, they are under enough pressure as it is and I am already very grateful with my Integral.

Those that know me know I am quite a sensitive Hangplayer. My touch is not a problem.
So let's talk about a comparison. A lot has been said that I can relate to / agree on. The BElls looks so much like a Hang, it's a bit weird. And I also it's a bit ackward to call yourself BEllArt if the original company is called PANArt - not the best idea. I agree that putting a brass ring is clearly 'inspired' by the Hang makers. But then again Felix and Sabina are known to be practical people, and their form surely serves function instead of the other way around. I can easily see this being the reason for trying to mimic the Hang, as opposed to the speculated reason he did the BElls the way he did to be able to fetch a higher price for one. Yes, the metal is thinner, and the BElls is lighter. Compared to my Hang, it's not as easy to play with the dynamics of the notes, and the total range of dynamics possible is smaller aswell (so you could say the tone fields have less depth to them compared to my Hang. And some notes have particular 'sweeter' spots where they sound better if you hit them there. To be fair, imho this holds true for a couple of first gen Hanghang I played too. If I hit my BElls too hard, on some notes there is a real chance I'll get an ugly sound. In general my BElls reminds me quite a bit of some 1st gen Hang I played, though I have played first gens that sounded significantly better aswell. So is the price fair? From a supply-demand market idea, taking into account for how much money some first-gen Hanghang have been sold for I'd say the price Luis is charging is realistic. Would this market have been there if it were not for the Hang? Don't think so. But does that automatically mean he is a money grubbing bastard? That seems to be the general sentiment for a lot of you in this discussion, and I think that's a bit of a quick judgement. When I met him he really came across as a genuinely good guy. As much as I'd like it if he went down the route of pricing these early BElls as first gen Hanghang, he is not obliged to.

Did I expect a Hang - ofcourse not, Luis has only made about 130 as we speak. I had some problems with the price aswell at first, but Luis is not Felix & Sabina. He has the right to choose his price and I have the right to refuse it, as you all have the right to think me a fool for buying a BElls at the price it is. I know I already had a lot of fun playing it so far, and I really enjoy it together with my Hang aswell. With the right touch, I think it sounds pretty good. It's definitely different but I appreciate it's sound quality aswell. I'm curious if the thickness of the metal will mean that it'll be subceptible to easier detuning. I'd say it needs more control when playing it then a Hang does (easier to overdo it) so I could see a quite a few BElls players (perhaps without any experience playing this kind of instrument) overplaying their instrument and perhaps hitting it out of tune quickly. Time will tell. It's definitely more a music instrument then the 'window to the angels' that my Hang can be, but that's fine for me. Sometimes I love that place my Integral can take me, sometimes I just want to make music with these beautiful harmonic steel sounds. Musically the BElls opens lots of options, and I can now also play major things between the two of them, which I am very happy for. Having the BElls also makes me realize and appreciate the deepness of my Hang even more.

Let's not be angry at Felix and Sabina if you can't have a Hang, respect the path they are taking and be thankful for their gift to the world. And let's not be angry at Luis for trying to reproduce the beautiful sounds of the Hang, let's be happy for it. For taking pressure off of Felix and Sabina and for letting people have an approximation of the Hang in the musical scale that speaks to them for themselves. Why look for the bad? I think my BElls sounds quite close to some of the first generations I played - and a lot of people still absolutely love the first generation Hanghang. Even if they, to a more or lesser degree lack the deep connection between the notes the Integral has, or the Helmholz activation. Frank, try to place yourself in the shoes one of those people that just discovered the Hang and were refused after writing a letter to obtain a FIH.. I'm sure the world would be different for you then. Maintaining your opinion is quite easy when you have more then one Hang. He couldn't hurt either PANArt's reputation or business if he'd want to, and I don't see him making a better sounding instrument then PANArt any time soon. I can understand they don't like how simular to the Hang he made it look, or the name he's using. But if that's all the problems there are I'm sure those could be worked out together no? I don't see why people are getting emotional and 'picking sides' so to speak. Either way, I'm happy I got the BElls. I now have a custom scale instrument which goes together great with my Hang and opens up a lot of musical possibilities. And I didn't pester Felix and Sabina for it. No harm done, expect against my wallet. Again, feel free to think I'm a fool for paying what I paid. But let's be happy for the music too!

I sense a negative undertone in a lot of posts here. With this I don't mean the stating of fact or some of the objective criticism that open minded people like Kelly who played a BElls and even me as a BElls owner can agree on. This undertone makes me not feel like being part of this discussion here so much, to be honest.

Just to be clear, I respect Felix and Sabina a lot. I also have respect for newcomer Luis. The world is not black and white.

Here is my BElls by the way, but don't think of it as a comparison between BElls and Hang.. The recording isn't that good, and these kind of instruments cannot *really* be recorded anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j668RPtnhw0

Hallo,

@pulpfiction. Thank you for your very interesting posting. It is nice to understand, why people want a Bells although they have a Hang. I could understand the reason if I think as a musician. If I want to make music, I need of course more scales. If you want to make a CD or go on stage for a show the Hang is limited. You cant feel the sound, so you need much scales.
If you buy a Bell you have one more scale. After a short time the most people desire more and more scales. You need a lot of Bells if you be a musician.
To play the Hang is a different experience. It is not the scale or the music what touch the people so deep. It is only the sound and the energy in this sound. Beliefe me. I play the Hang for nearly four years and I meet a lot of people in this time. I was also on the streets and on a stage with my Hang. I am also an musician. I play guitar and drumset. I think I know a lot of about music and the Hang.

We speak in this Topic at the moment about the BEllArt Bells. I wrote the name BELLArt in the same way as PANArt wrote their name.
I think only this example shows a lot.
All the other instruments like Halo, Caisa, ... and so on, are optical more different from the Hang. Easy to see on the first or second look.

@Pulpfiction. Can you explain, why Lluis copy aspects from the Hang although he dont need it for the Bellssound?
For example the diagonal orientation of the tone fields of the Bells. At the Hang this orientation have an important function relating to a class of tensions in the shell. But these tensions are not realised in the Bells.

Lluis dont need that for his sound. The bell has not this strong tensions.
You have luck, because you can make an experiment.
Go with your Bells and your Hang in the direct sunlight. Play these instruments after a while and tell us the result from this experiment.
After that, you will understand a lot.

I understand the desire from people to have an similar instrument like the Hang. But it is not enough to make it optical identic, but dont care about the Art of tuning.
You say there is a negativ undertone in my words. I could say open, that I dont like what the people behind Bellart did. (I dont beliefe, that there is only Lluis. There must be experienced steelpan tuners in the background).
Why I dont like it?
Imagine you are Felix and Sabina. They have a Bells in his workshop. The must look twice if they want to see if this is a first generation Hang or a Bells.
After that, they go in their workshop. You could hear easy how many power it needs to tune a Hang. They must beat the metall with power, because it is a strong and thick metall.
Lluis dont need that. He has a thin powerless metall. Easy to beat.
Felix and Sabina must deal with a lot of tensions and stresses in the material. A Hang only work if the energy flows in the right way and there must be a balance. It needs a lot of time to found these balance.
Lluis dont care about that. He has not a strong material. He has only seperated tone fields. Easy to tune for an steelpan tuner. Only a question of the right geometry.
A Hang must rest for a few weeks, because of the strong tension. After that Panart use the hammer again to tune it.
Lluis can sell the Bells instantly after it is ready. There is no tension.........

I could tell you a lot ot technical examples. And this is needfull to understand the difference in quality about Hang and Bells.
That LLuis ask for the same money is one point. Normally in the world is, that better quality is more expensive as "low level" quality. Or not?
What should Panart do?

There is another for me more importand problem. People are sitting in the streets or infront of public and play the Bells. A lot of people will think, that this is a Hang from PANArt. It is not so easy to read the BELLArt sticker from distance.
They will think this is what a PANArt Hang is. A nice musical instrument, with a pleasant sound for the ears. Maybe they listen a few minutes and ask if it is possible to play another tune. The player will say that the music is similar because they only have one scale. Everything sounds like Hijaz, or Pygmy, or Ake Bono........ and so on.
They dont make the experience that scales are not important for the Hangsound. The Hangsound is very strong. An powerfull beauty.
Where ist the powerfull beauty in this "Hang"?
It looks exact like the Hang. It must be a Hang. Or not?

Greetings
Frank

Let me take it the other way: The Bells is not a problem but a chance to have a good look on the quality and characteristic of the Hang. But to do this we have to talk about some other topics than how nice all the scales are. We have to join the "tuniversity" Felix Rohner would say.

Understanding the Bells can help to understand the Hang. I can understand pulpfiction1's problem: Yes Hang playing is boring! Only this one poor scale! Only seven tones and one Boing in the middle! The melodic and harmonic means are so restricted!

To become satisfied with your Hang as a Hang you have to go another path: If you search for more possibilities you will not find them: Yes the Hang is strongly restricted. Go the path of doing less not searching for more. Play more seldom. Play more quiet. Don't try to get more sound out of the vessel. Become poor.

For thousands of years mothers have sung lullabies for their babies. What a boring practice compared with music by Beethoven, Stockhausen, The Beatles, Jimmy Hendrix or Thelonius Monk!

The philosophy of Hang playing is: The less you try the more you get.

But this philosophy doesn't work with the Bells. So the problem is that there is an instrument that imitate a Hang but cannot serve you like a Hang. There is another problem: Most of the demonstrations of the Hang at YouTube, on the stages and in the streets don't help to understand the philosophy of Hang playing. They are bad models. Therefor there are a lot of Hang players lost with these models and their big problem of Hang-boredum. They feel and think: There must be more! But they don't find it because they search in the false direction: More scales, more instruments, more combinations with other instruments. It is very impressive for me to notice that the majority of Hang players I come to know or see on YouTube or anywhere else haven't any clue about the importance of the Gu-Ding-resonance (and how to get it) - the main basis of Hang playing. Without this resonance the Hang is a boring peace of metal that makes "ringdi dongdie plimpdi plump". I'm not astonished that people look for more alternatives like the Bells if they only know this "ringdi dongdie plimpdi plump"!

Ix

Again a very black and white perspective, in my opinion . I realize the Hang is not a lot, in musical possibilities. And that, if only looking for that, I'd be so much better off with a piano or a guitar. I also understand the deepness of the Hang, I like to play in silence and not focussed on the musical aspect sometimes too. But why is it so hard to accept someone that acknowledges all these things, to also see a different side of the Hang and play it in a musical way too. I don't see the wrong there, or the misguidedness. Oh how I understand so very little, apparently. You say about Hang players looking for the musical side of the Hang, or to combine it with different instruments:

This is exactly what I meant with negative undertone. This is an opinion. Whether this opinion is yours, Frank's, or even Felix and / or Sabina's, it is still an opinion. And there is a big fat judgement in it, 'false'. I think you are very convinced, that because I do not share your opinion, I am incorrect. I think I have the freedom to play or regard my instruments in whatever way I like.

This is not my opinion, and also I am not a toddler Ixkeys. It's a bit narrow-minded to discard a different opinion just because it's not yours or to disdain me for having it, and the way you try to do it is a bit unrespectful.

I could see why Felix and Sabina would prefer that the expressions people make with the Hang are in line with their own thoughts and feelings on the Hang. When the Hang first came on the scene it was a blank page, there were no rules and there was no playing culture or frame of reference. Some people came to the Hang with ideas, techniques and skills used on different types of drums. Some people approached it without previous experience of playing anything percussive. Why can we not play it as we choose to (as it was before?) without there having to be an affect stuck to it? Is it a shame to use instruments in non-conventional ways? I very much enjoy lots of varieties of how people play the guitar, and also what they play on it.. I love how Andi Steil drums on his kalimba with his hands, and gets a totally different sound out of it then you would when plucking the tines with your fingers. Why should there be rules now or 'an approved way'? I would love it if Felix & Sabina liked what I did with the Hang, but they don't. That is ok. It's my right to play how I want and theirs to think I don't play nice, or don't understand the Hang. I'm free to play as I do. I 'judge' using a more objective parameter; is someone consistently beating his Hang out of tune? This is something I don't do, I'm always careful with my Hang (to the point where I seriously annoy people that I allow to try mine, haha).

Is the Hang a musical instrument? In my opinion untill the Free Integral, all Hanghang have a strong musical side to them. It clearly started out as a musical instrument. And it's even there in the FIH, even though that is not 440hz. Are there other things too? Sure! Its incredibly deep. My BElls has this musical side to it, with less of the deepness that most Hanghang have. Does that mean it's not enjoyable? I enjoy it a lot and have gotten very positive reactions to the BElls from people that had no concept or knowledge of a Hang.

I am in no way qualified to give a response to this as I couldn't communicate with Luis that well, nor did we talk that long. I can imagine his reasoning though. Like I said before F&S are known to be people of function, not form. Luis does not have a steelpan tuner background. I think it's likely that, to get the sound he was aiming for, he tried to copy the Hang the best he could to have somewhere to start. Without having the intimate knowledge of the Hang Felix & Sabina have ofcourse. So perhaps he did this, because he felt it was probably good for something in the sound, without understanding what for. Mind you that this is just a possible explanation, and I am merely speculating, I can in no way speak for Luis.

What makes you think Luis doesn't care about that? Did you have a conversation with him, in which this became apparent, or is this an assumption? He's not that experienced yet and I don't know how long he has been experimenting, but perhaps he is just not at that point in developement yet. I know he's very motivated to improve the sound of the instruments he makes. I'm sure you'll reply; then he shouldn't sell them yet. But he is making BElls, and people that get onto the list know they are not on a Hanglist but a BElls list. I think people are smart enough to understand a Hang and a BElls are not the same, and if they have ears they can hear it too. Even when they look so much alike. If they, knowing this, would like to get one, that is up to them! If Felix & Sabina had 20 extra pairs of hands, more time in the day that they do, and would still offer a choice scales, Luis probably would probably not be selling BElls. They do not though.

I try to offer different perspectives to bring a bit balance the discussion a bit. I wish people where a bit more respecful of differences of opinion, and could 'agree to disagree' more.

Hallo,

yes, a lot of is only opinion. But what we said about the physic and the tuning is verifiable. It is not opinion.
There is a way to make the Bells and there is a way to make a Hang.

To make a Bells is "calculation". To make a Hang is Art.

Ask an steelpan tuner, how to tune a tone field with a fundamental note an overtones. It is only a question of geometry and the correct relations.
It is not important for the tone pitch how many internal stress is in the material.
But for the dynamic it is absolute essential to have strong tension and stress.
The Bells is made with thin material. It is not thick enough to make a good steelpan. Do you think such a material is thick enough to make a Hang copy?
But why Lluis use such a powerless material? Because it is easy in relation!
An steelpan tuner could make every day a lot of. Cheap goods in bulk.

Good Steelpans are made with a tickness from 1mm-1,2mm
To tune the powerfull "Pang" material is an step forward. You have nearly the same thickness as on a good steelpan, but you have a material with more power. It needs a lot of experience and years of practice to have a good result with this material.
It needs also a lot of practice and years of experience to make a good steelpan. No question.
What Lluis did is a step backwards. He use a material what is not good enough, to make a good steelpan. How he will make a good Hangcopy with this metall sheets?

There is something like proffesional ethics. Steelpantuner are proud of what they do. It is no wonder, that we cant find a signature on the Bells.
Bellarts tuner know, that other steelpan tuner easy understand that this is a "low level" so called "Handpan". Nothing to be proud of.

On my visit at Panart i read a lot of in a book about the history of steelpan. This is not fun! It is a culture!

Greetings
Frank

Oh, Now we talk about "What is Hang?" topic.

I think is this:
At the begining, Hang is a rare musical instrument, that's for sure. Felix and Sabina are steelpan tuner. They inspirited by several musical instrument(udu drum gong .etc). Adding some resonance to make steelpan's sound more richful. So the 1st gen Hang is born. As experience growing, They discover that the resonance itself has more power. The power make people associate with a lot of things, like emotions, memories, philosophy, and themselves. People be touched by the rich resonance---the Hang's soul.

So Panart try lots of scales to discover the magical power of resonance. some scales enhance the resonance, and some scales weaken it. Aaron(the Halo helper) talked about his Hang, three of the tone fields are isolated.

After a long and difficult research, They find a perfect scale Ding-D3, surrounded and supported by seven tone fields: A3,Bb3,C4,D4,E4,F4,A4.

There is a harmonic balance dulcet resonance based on this scale. This is Integral Hang.

And after a year, They find even this winning scale has some disharmony or fault. And they give the A=440Hz up audaciously, free to discover the right Frequency. Purely to pursue the Hang's resonance. The Free Integral Hang. And I think they still on the way.

Hang is not musical instrument any more.

Though I couldn't even touch a Hang or Hang-like instrument, I try to approach the Hang by reading Panart's papers and listen to the vids on youtube. I think this is the power of Hang.

What's the BElls? I think BElls is a GOOD Hang-imitation. Even a lot of people sniff at it with evidence. It will proceed. I'd like to see BElls proceed.

Nobody can copy Hanghang, they all to imitate it. There isn't another Hanghang. You know it, I know it. The people who don't know it, it doesn't matter,They never know Hang at the first place.(My girfriend think me crazy that I'm going to order a two-fasten-pans,After she knows the price she watched me like a I'm a wierdo)

Please correct me, I'm not confident with my opinions.

Hallo,

I just played my Hang. It is not boring.
The reason is, that the Hang is not! linear. The notes cannot be seen in isolation from each other.
The whole Hang is singing. Yes, it is music. These music could bring something inside me in resonance. And this is something great.

I had a totally different experience on the Bells. This is a linear instrument. It is a little bit like a Metallophon. Here we have linear notes. There are seperated metal plates with a more or less pleasant sound. The Bell sound is on the first moment quite pleasant.
The Bells is like such a Metallophon with only eight notes. And this is not opinion. It is measurable.
It seems, that the metall "eats" the sound.
On the Hang the sound is "blossom out". The feeling on the Bells is a little bit like the sound on this Youtube video.
Dont understand me wrong. It is for sure not a same sound on Bells and these PVC instrument. I only have a similar feeling where the sound is gone, after i touch the Bells. It "plopps" in a kind of PVC tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5dD4KkJcAw

I think I speak about the absorbability.

Frank

Hallo,

The Bells is like a open book for an experienced steelpan tuner and much more for an Hangmaker.
You could find special marks (or not), you can do experiments and analyse the results and so on.........
I played the Bells and I could say something about that as a Hangplayer.
But, I listen a long time what Felix explained me about the Bells and the difference between making a Hang and what Lluis (or his Tuner) has done.
This is not only speculation. The Bells was on the table between us, all the time.
For example: There are NO! knowable tuning marks inside the Bells.
How is this possible? Because Lluis heat the Bells after! the tuning to get the blue colour.
If there are any tensions after the tuning process the high temperature destroy these tensions.
Lluis must not care about that, because for his flat sound he dont need inner tensions.

Only one of a lot things about the physic. Not speculation, not opinion.

Frank

@pulpfiction1: Why do you worry? Who am I that I could be able to forbid you anything? You are a free man living in a free land. You can do with your Hang whatever you like. Let me write my opinion as I let you write your opinion.

Ix

Don't worry IX, I stopped worrying. Felix told me I did not understand the Hang, when I was at Bern for a retune in april. In the world of Hang, Felix and Sabina *are* gods, and I hold them in high regard. I took Felix's judgement / opinion quite hard, and I was unable to enjoy my Hang for a month or two. After this while of worrying and feeling bad vibes whenever I picked up the Hang and let it take me where it went, I realized that the only way to really enjoy myself with my Hang and be able to express myself, is to use the freedom I have and let go of all the negative vibes surrounding it. I respect other peoples opinions but I can disagree and follow my own path .

It just a bit sad for me to see moderators behave the way they do here. I have no problems with your opinions, but everything always comes so much from the negative side of things. Why not stay a bit more neutral and let others enjoy the things they enjoy? What is there to gain from it? I'm all for being objective, and sometimes it's a bit happy happy joy joy over at Handpan.org, but if you think you here at Hangforum.com are objective then please take a good look in the mirror. The thing that offended me was not your opinion, but the way you severely oversimplified mine and while doing so tried to stereotype me as a child or someone very stupid, in order to discredit me so other people don't take my opinion seriously no doubt.


It's a very cheap way of 'debate' and one that grew old not too long after this forum was created. Did you ever wonder why it's oh so very quiet in the Hangforum, or why Mr. Colley gave up being a moderator here? I'll give you a hint; it's not because the Hang is not worth talking about.. Perhaps you don't appreciate a dialogue, after all, in a monologue you're always right .
I don't feel like contributing to this forum anymore so I leave you now, to play my empty, flat, dead sounding BElls, with a big smile on my face .

My god....what a discussion !!!

There is one way to play Hang or other "things" like the original Hang....

your personal way !!! For the rest....prttttttttt.....no interest.
Empty discussion.

I stop to watch Hang playing on the internet because....this is piece of shit !!
Why ???? Because you don't feel the instrument and just hear sound and often very bad quality sound.

It is not possible to compare the Hang with other "same style" instrument because it's impossible to replace the quality, the techniques, the feeling, the touching........etc, of Sabina and Felix.

It's clear when the Integral is created a new way of playing and "living" the hangplaying is born and the Integral ( and think the Free Integral ) demand to stop "playing", like other instruments, but feel and communicate with this "sound sculptur".
I think this differents things not because i follow the PANArt way but really because a "live" my Hang like this way and with my all experience when a play Hang for people....i only play inside, in silence, just the Hang and tingsha ( for the beginning of the first playing ), always in free feeling and improvisation and for small group.
I have the great chance to play Hang with my friend ( from 15 years now ) Bip, he have equally an Integral
and we play totally in freedom.

I stop now but .....

play like you want, there is no wrong way to play Hang...just your way.

If you really think so, you have a big problem:



You felt judged by a god. But you created this problem yourself, declaring Felix as god. If there is a god we have to fear and to obey.

And then rebellion takes place:



I don't know what it is why a number of Hang players are caught in this vicious circle of obedience and rebellion. You shouldn't put anybody into the position to lead you. Then there isn't any need for rebellion. Reading your comments to me I feel put into such a position. But I have no interest to lead you. I only tell my experiences and thoughts. If they are not useful for you - so what? It's your responsibility to deal with not mine. I'm not your leader. I don't want obedience. And Felix is not your god. What a misunderstanding!



This is another misunderstanding. No moderator have spoken in this discussion. If there is the need that a moderator has to act, we will use our moderator accounts. I don't want that my posts are received as moderator statements.



I think you didn't understand that I wrote about own experiences.

And I think the main problem is that you think I am the leader and you have to obey or to rebel.

imagine there's no heaven
it's easy if you try
no hell below us
above us only sky

Ix

Hallo,

thank you Ixkeys. Wise words.

We dont speak about "Gods". If anybody want to speak about this topic, feel free to open a discussion.
I have respect for the Art and the Artist, because he can do something special. Only a few people on this planet have the knowledge and the experience to make a metal sheet singing like the Hang.
They wasnt born with this professional skills and competence. It is the result from over 30 years of working hard. Every day they "dance" with the hammer.
I am sure, that "Thor" dont practice so much years, before he could make thunderbolds.
If people work so hard so many years for one target (to find the best possible sound in steel), I only respect this work.
Behind PANArt are two hardworking, busy humans with the vision to make the best Hang. That´s it. No church, no God, no cult!

We have a lot of arguments and examples for the quality of Hang and the imitation Bells in this topic.
The difference in physic is attestable and not opinion.

Yes, it is difficult to make a discussion about proffesional ethics.
Is it a problem that BELLArt copy all aspects from the Hang, although he dont need it for the sound? I think yes.
It is simple theft. Only because he want to make money. Nothing more.
Why he use the brass ring? Not needfull for sound!
Why he has such a similar name? BELLArt-PANArt . Not needfull for sound!
Why the tone fields have the same geometry and diagonal direction? Not needfull for the Bellssound!

And so on and on.

Could anybody explain that?

A Hang needs a few month from the first step until it is ready and leave the workshop. A lot of hard work.
We all know the quality and the powerfull sound of the Hang.
The Bells is not the work from a person "coming from nowhere". It is a very good imitation. Optimized to make a lot of Bells, with much less work as it needs for an instrument with a strong material.

I understand that there are not enough Hanghang for all people who are touched by the sound. I understand, that people try to make their own version of such an instrument.
We see on these days different people doing that. With more or less success.
It is a lot of to learn. Nothing wrong.
We will see different instruments with different qualitys.
But the Bells is optical 1:1 a Hang. A big difference.

PANArt could easy make every day a lot of instruments like the Bells!
Do you want that? They have the know how. They have the tools. They could start tommorow. I think they could make easy every day 10 or more instruments in Bell quality.
Do you want that?

Answer this question please. Should Panart make an instrument like the Bell? 10 per day. 300 per month. 3000 per year?


Greetings
Frank

there it is... a John Lennon song lyric quote... now I know things are turning hippy in here

Guys, guys, guys.... i think we all need to understand that anything that is ever said is only ever opinion, whether 2 people share that opinion or not. In the case of Frank and IX they are friends, they have spent a lot of time at the Hanghaus compared to most and in that they will not only share their own opinions but also those of Felix and Sabina. Its inevitable for someone that spends time with the maker of an instrument... to use an analogy the same thing happens in church or within communes, how often do we all get influenced by the people around us? we're human.... that's what makes friendships and bonds and makes people leaders, some are natural leaders, others follow.

Not everyone will agree with the things I say, a large number of people won't agree with the things Frank and IX say because they share a united opinion, that’s 2 people against 1 and that scares some folk.

Lets also not forget its all been said before, English is not the first language of most people on this forum and small details are being lost or picked up where they needn't be.

The condescending overtones are apparent, are they meant and nasty... I can't say. I'd like to think it’s just the above English translation of words, let’s face it things blow over as quick as they fire up.

When Pulpfiction said Felix and Sabina are gods... it wasn't meant in the literal term they are heavenly beings blessing the world with miracles and saviours... its the same as calling Jimmi Hendrix a God on the guitar... its a term for the highest possible stature in a particular field.... some people are gods at sports, some in music others in natural world and science!! Just a term not a literal meaning.

The one thing that always makes me smile is the moderator hat that is used in here…. Whether you have a Moderator account or a normal account you’re the same person, seriously it doesn’t excuse behaviour because you said it as your normal self as opposed to the mod self. If you were a politician you’d not be able to hide behind the two persona’s and for me that’s the worry I have with statements like that, why can’t Frank and IX be one person instead of two?? You can still join in on conversations and be yourselves without the worry of ridicule, having two accounts just makes a mockery of the forum, they serve no purpose? If they do serve a purpose then I’m missing something… or is it just so you can freely express your opinion as Frank/IX but then tell yourselves off as Mods for going too far??? Just an observation and not meant in anyway to offend you guys… just giving you how it looks from the outside perspective.

I also think people shouldn’t judge, Luis is doing what he is doing… I don’t agree with the price but as Pulpfiction said it’s my choice to buy or not to buy. I haven’t spent enough time with the BELL to know if I like it or not… first initial impressions were good after playing for 10 minutes my second impressions were not so good so I’m on the fence at the moment. Musically it plays lovely with other instruments… the Hang being one of them, on its own it’s all been said before in this thread… just not sure.

But Frank can I presume by your thinking that Luis has other people behind the scene’s tuning the BELL, is this your opinion or one that has materialized from conversations with Felix?? You yourself have been at the forefront of being told you’ve done something when you haven’t and you’ve hit back quite hard. Opinions like this are sometimes best not shared until there is hard evidence, all you are doing is discrediting someone based upon hearsay or conversations about the supposed and not the reality… damaging for now even if they prove to be true later on.

We’re only ever going to go around in circles from this point onwards I feel…. Its slipping into a dangerous place again where emotions are running high based on the written word, it’s a shame Frank and IX can’t make HangOut where we might be able to actually sit around a fire and chat about things in person…. Things are never quite as bad as they seem in person but I suppose a trip to the HangOut is out of the question based on what goes on there, its not something that fits with PANarts vision anymore I’m sure, after all people sitting around playing Hang together is now a cardinal sin.

I too like Pulp have gone through my own period of not wanting to pick up the Hang due to negativity surrounding it, never before have I been in the midst’s of such conflict over what is just an object! Wars have been fought over religion and for me where I’m sat the Hang is well within its own war in the world over what is and what isn’t allowed to be played, what is and what isn’t allowed to be produced…. when really… does it really matter??? Does it??? Seriously????

Pulp hit the nail on the head (Barr the legal issues that lie with PANart and BELLart surrounding logo and design) the choice is up to the people out there wanting, waiting and needing… do you want a Hang but can’t get one, what do you do? Do you want a BELL and are willing to part with the 1400 euro (I thought they were 1200 but from posts here seems they are higher) again a choice for the individual… just as it is a choice to play the Hang the way you want too, the only negativity I can see from playing the Hang the way you want to is the hearsay that if you do you won’t get a retune? Is that true?? Or is that just hearsay???

@Frank and IX, do you see yourselves as spokespeople for PANart? I can say that I do, you guys are always saying you have just got back from time at the Hanghaus and you spoke with Felix and Sabina, whether you realise it or not your posts come across as fact, this is what PANart say you should do with the Hang, this is what you shouldn’t. Clearly your knowledge has been heavily influenced by Felix and this is why you guys carry such weight in your opinions, that and you seem to spend more time than anyone at the Hanghaus… hell I tried to visit them for a day/weekend just to chat and meet them properly and never even got a response? So you guys must be very well thought of by Felix and Sabina.

What makes it hard for Joe Bloggs Hang owner out there is the constant battle against what is right and wrong… “good and evil” I suppose on playing the Hang… what is the right way? Is there a right way or is it literally your way as long as you’re not beating merry hell out of it.

Probably all been said before but I need it right in my mind… what is the right way!

Hallo,

@Kelly. I have not much time at the moment. So I only answer two questions of your posting. More later.

Moderator: It is easy. We have rules. Not much. If someone make a posting with illegal content or personally insults, it is time for an Moderator. Thats all.

I am not a spokesman for Panart. But i had the chance to speak with Felix and Sabina about the Hang and also the physic behind Bells.
Of course I can use my knowledge for discussion. It is my understanding of the situation. Nothing more.


Frank

Good day everyone!

I'd like to ask a question to you folks reading along and commenting (excluding both Funky and Ixkeys):

Does anyone bother to actually take a calm look at Funky's and Ixkey's QUESTIONS?
Does anyone bother to try to ANSWER these (very very veeery!!!) VALID questions?

Now, put aside the fact that Funky and Ix may come across "very german" or as "diciples" (followers) of PANArt.
I do see the tendencies of trying to "put Funky and Ixkeys into a certain corner". It has happened since years, and it's happening right now again. When I look at the history in these several internet Forums concerning the Hang, I can see that these two guys always came up with down-to earth arguments. They NEVER EVER blew their fuses. Everyone else did, and that, on a constant basis. To me it seems like "hell yeah, if I think of it, they may have a point. So, better not think of it and discredit them".

Now: Sure, Funky and Ixkeys have a lot of information from and about PANArt. So what? GOOD!!! It's a proper chance to get good information, innit?

I am not sure if I EVER heard or read about "what your are 'allowed' to do with the Hang, and what not". You want to play your thing with mallets or wedding rings? Go on then. Me, as a steelpan tuner, I would tell YOU, dear player, to get lost. Do you seriousely think that I will service your instrument on a regular basis for you to mash it up again? You must be joking!

That's how it is. You are allowed to do everything with your property, absolutely everything! But don't think you can come and give me sh#*. So, as you see, nobody is "forbidding" anything. Get that!

As for the Hang imitation and "theft" of Luis Eguiguren:
Funky has asked some very valid and FACTUAL questions. The answers given go mostly in the direction of "hey, why don't you let Luis do what he does", "why are you always criticizing", "each to their own", and so on. Sure, no need to talk about it then. The world turns around, everything is possible, anyone can, and nothing really matters, as the world is free and, oh yeah, we are now all globalized, and whatever else. Fine. You really believe yourselfs?.....

Ok, if anyone bothers to care and is interested, here are my two cents on the matter of the "Bells" by Luis Eguiguren:
1) Did you notice the little "R" for "Registered" on the bellart website? Well, that term ain't registered at all. So, how do you call that? A lie? Deception? A joke? You choose.

2) I quote Kelly:

As I see it, it is currently PANArt being discredited by Luis Eguiguren and whoever else with "with" him or "behind" him. Yes, you are reading right! I don't know where Funky has it from, well, I guess he spoke to Felix, ent it. BUT: For me, it is as clear as good vodka, that Luis is not alone (I have met and spoken with the people of PANArt less than my right hand has fingers, during the last decade. So, in case you're trying to put me into the "PANArt-corner", wrong adress folks).
Luis has people behind him. There is money involved. There is technology involved. It's a d#*^ scam, that's what it is.

Right, fair enough, the world is free, each to their own, blablabla. As good as I know PANArt and their business philosophy, they'll never let that go down without defending themselves and their legal rights.
My personal opinion is: Wait and see. I'll have fun! Others will not.

Greetings
Werner

PS: Anyone owning a object by Luis, those who bought Halo's, Caisa's, the lot: If you really (and I mean really!!) like your instruments and you like to play with them, if you are happy with what you payed for, then that's OK. No one could ever tell you that you are dumb/wrong/"not getting it" because you like something which is not the "original, real thing"....