hangforum.com - The Archive

I know quality aspects is not only sound, We are not speaking of categories but about a family of instruments.
I see a lot more diferences in quality (thats sound, construction, physics, dedication...) between a second gen. Hang and a first gen. Hang than between a Bells and a second gen. Hang. I can´t speak for the halo because I not tried it in person, but I bet is the same.

You must understand that the word "handpan" is used because people who need a word for speaking about all that instruments, liked it, and then they use it. Nobody asked them to use it, simply it was there and people got it. Now I`m not speaking about the word itself, but about your sentence: "it is not clear that this should be a category name for these kind of instruments. "
Of course, it is. And IX pointed it out.

Reading between lines, I`m now seeing the point taken by Danny, maybe the problem you see is to have the Hang grouped with other instruments instead of be the only one in his class?

Hi,

again. Where i have made this statement?

Frank

No. Definitely not. Whether there are important differences between Hang and other instruments in the group or not is not the question here. This discussion is a discussion inside of the group not a criterion that decides whether an instruments belong to the group or not.

As I wrote in my last posting: The challenge is to find a term that is above of all those discussions and can be used in consense by everyone.

Ix

Funky, I said "reading between lines" not that you said it explicit.

Ix, then reread the Funky posts because seem that its not clear for him.

Hi,

@synthi . It is clear, that if people copy the Hang or only the most aspects of the shape, that we have different instruments without an "generic term". Some people use Handpan and this is only the result from Kyle Cox website. At the moment people who use this "generic term" are mostly "insider". Today with the internet such things spread fast.
I only say, that Handpan is for me wrong. Also the inventor of the Hang say that Hang is not a Handpan.
So, why can Kyle Cox name these groups of instruments, against the Standarts of Trinidad?

Can you answer on this question? Or anybody else?

Greetings
Frank

This is a workshop. Therefor don't look whether someone formulated something in the past that could be understood so or so or so. Let's see whether we can come to a productive consense. Funky agreed with my challenge, so let's discuss this point and not some side effects.

Ix

Hey, Danny, I think you may have hit on a good name: SONI-WOK or SONI-PAN

Hi,

I see, that for a lot of people is a big discussion necessity about question of principle. Not all agree, that we must search for a "generic term".
Maybe it is better, if we speak in this thread about all the aspects from different views and you open another Thread with a "workshop" and a few specifications on this thread.
Nobody "must" come to the "workshop" but anybody "can".

Frank

Your right Funky. My formulation was a bit to short (an effect of being forced to formulate in a foreign language ). I want to invite posters to look at this topic as a workshop. In this workshop contradicting opinions are wellcome. But my aim is to finde a consense above the contradictings. I think this (mine) opinion belongs to this topic. I think it doesn't make sense to discuss the topic twice. I think it is important to express and understand all contradicting statements that were made in this topic to come to the conclusion that we should find a consense abvove the dissensions.

Ix

Lot's of instruments are made of tuned sheet steel.

Only a few have tone fields hammered into them for the purpose of creating multi-tone (i am sure there is a better term for this) scales.

Funky, AFAIK you are the only one who think that we must not use a genric term.

IX, AFAIK, only two people (Funky and you) are against the handpan name. I see that that is the best we can go for a consense, all but two. If you want everyone agree on a name, we can stay for entire life and always will be someone not satisfied.

On my part, I`ll continue using the term "handpan", is good for me, descriptive, is not offensive, its mean nothing about other cultures for me, but if someone in Trinidad&Tobago is unhappy because I use it, just tell me.

Anyway, the day that you come with a new word that everybody acept I`ll be there to use it too.

This continues to be an interesting discussion . . .

One thing I've thought about: How do we complete the following sentence?

The Hang is a/an ________________ . PANArt calls it an "instrument" numerous times in the 2008 booklet. But the word instrument is so general. At other times people call it a sound sculpture. If I have time, I would complete that sentence with "melodic steel percussion instrument. (We all know it is not a drum!)

I think we are searching for a way to finish that sentence.

When people first see my Hang, I often explained that its ancestor is the steel drum (or pan). When I suggest people imagine the concave piece of metal with the tone fields that has been turned upside down, I often get an expression of, "Aha, yes, I see that!" So, the fact that the Hang is the "exact reverse" of a steel drum/pan is no accident.

Words and cultures mix over time, and they change. Often this is an organic process that happens largely without people's conscious knowledge. I think of it much as the way a river changes its flow over many years.

Personally, I don't agree with any of the so far mentioned criticisms of handpan, those being: 1. PANArt does not agree. 2. It was decided by one person only (I would say that the group that has used it, even if small, has somehow "ratified" that choice. 3. It somehow damages Trinidad's cultural treasure (The steel drum/pan is still around, and still closely connected with that culture, and we are using a different term to refer to it. It is like a distant relative.)

Finally, there are some issues with handpan, but I'm still waiting for someone to evaluate it in comparison to what they consider a better alternative. So far we have just criticism. But we can only evaluate something in relation to its alternatives. What would be better? Again, many of us are open, if someone has a good idea.

So far I have seen the following suggested in this thread (some less than seriously):
EllipSound
LidBox
SoniCircle
SoundBox
HarmonicDiscus
HarmoniCircle
Fifthound
Unidentified Frying Object
UF-OVERTONER.
PaNHarp
WOKGONG
WOK-A-DOODLE
GAMELAWOK
GAMELAPAN
or MUSI-PAN
PANTREAT
PanMaster
PanMuse
manuphone
tactophone
Porthole UFO HandPan
Handwebergrill
SONI-PAN
SONI-WOK


To me, handpan is much better than any alternatives listed here so far. And it already has some traction, and has the elegance of capturing quite a lot in its short two syllables.

To beat a dead horse:

The folks in Trinidad created a totally new and wonderful musical instrument by hammering tone fields into used steel drums. Then some other folks started making them out of a more predictable material called sheet steel that was more production friendly and offered design flexibility. Some of the new makers took liberties with the original design but preserved, for the most part, the original sound. Trinidad got paranoid and decided to set a national standard for "steel pan" mistakenly thinking their national interest was at stake. Thankfully, for the rest of the folks on the planet, the national standard means nothing. If you don't live in Trinidad you can call anything that looks and sounds like those things in Trinidad and is played in similar way "steel pans."

Then, along comes Felix and Sabina taking many liberties with the original design of steel pan. Through their creative genius and artistry the hang was born. We should thank our lucky stars every day for their wonderful work. Through their efforts the idea of hammering tone fields into thin steel to create scales has been taken to a very lofty height indeed. But, while the sounds emanating from the hang are quite different from those of the parent steel pan, they are also similar. Now, I have never heard a hang in person. My observations are based solely on recordings. Still, to me there is no mistaking the ancestry.

A major difference between "steel pan" and "hang" is the method of generating the sound. "Hand" vs "stick". It's a no brainer.

Frank, perhaps it would be helpful to think:

The word "handpan" is not the same as the word "pan." "Handpan" is not the same as "hand pan." The root "pan" may lend meaning, but itself be changed by its context, to have a different application.

It is no disrespect to anyone to adopt a new usage for a word that already has many.

I would suggest that it is a sign of respect, even, to acknowledge one's ancestors in this way.

Regarding who "gets" to name anything...

...as is usually the case, it is not a matter of "can," in the sense that implies there is permission to be given or taken.

As is usually the case, it was a matter of simple need.

(You would have been much more upset I am sure if he wanted to make the name Hang generic, after all... )

aaron

PS Ix, your summary of the various positions being espoused here was most excellent!

Hi,

ok.
So, it looks like the "new handpan developments" want an extra category? They dont want to stand under the same "topic" as the PANArt Hang?!

A few people think I want to say the Hang should have an extra place. Here a lot of people think, that "Handpan" is always a term used for the Hang.
I say, this is not true.

1. The inventor of the Hang told me, that a Hang is not a Handpan.

2. The most people who call instruments "Handpan" mean not the Hang. You dont beliefe this?

If you search on youtube.com and use only "Handpan" as a searchword you find only 35 search results.

Lets have a closer look what stand behind the "Handpan" if you search for it.

6 results are Halo Videos
6 results are videos from a game of handball (nothing to do with instruments)
5 results are Caisa Videos
5 results are Videos from Dennis Havlena (like Hank and so on. Not only one Hang)
3 results are self made instruments with search tags Handpan (no Hang)
1 result are people playing on an ice cube and other items (no instruments)
1 result is the Bellart Bell

3 results are Panart Hang videos from "player 1"
1 result is a Playlist (different videos)
2 results are Panart Hang video from "player 2"
1 result is a Panart Hang video from "player 3"
1 result is a Panart Hang video from Marco Della Ratta (a man who made also instruments and he called his creations also Handpan)

So, we have on Youtube 3 Hangplayer who call the Hang a "Handpan".

There are hundrets of videos from Hangplayer who dont call the Hang a "Handpan"

This looks for me not, that this is a "generic term" also in use from Hangplayers.

The most results are not Hang. Halo, Bell, Caisa, Hank are the instruments where also the inventor called it in the tags a "Handpan".
Means that, that they want to stay in a extra category?

Do the same with google! You find the same people and maybe a handfull more.

I think some people overrate a little bit the number of Handpan users, if they say only two people stand on the opposite.

I hope this is not only the next posting where people ingore facts.

Greetings
Frank

Facts, facts, facts...... not saying that they are.... but even the best representational data can be skewed. A search for Hang "drum" will ellicit many, many hits, I would imagine. As the term Hang Drum has been grasped by the collective consciousness and embraced. Personally, I removed any tags, or reference to my own videos of Hang drum, at least as they work together, as best I could. However, I would imagine that most will not nor even be aware of going through this effort. So, as a result, you will still receive many hits with this verbiage..... even if is against, or an affront to the original Hang makers.

So do we ignore the "fact" that the term "Handpan" is being used commonly amongst a majority of hand played sheet steel enthusiasts? Who are we exactly trying to appease? Or are "we" trying to bend general consensus to fit a minority's opinion? What exactly do we understand as "fact"? That F & S are not happy with this term being used? That it offends the National Cultural standards of an entire country? That the term, though descriptive and accepted, is not completely in line with the function of the instrument itself?

We can banter back and forth in the spirit of meaningful discussion, but at the end of the day what are we trying to establish, and exactly whom for? The makers? The hang community? The un-educated public that would consider the Hang to be a wok?

Forgive me for thinking this, as I am always one for enlightened discussion, but a "workshop" on this issue, IMHO, would merely serve only to re-hash the finite number of arguments for any side or point of view. There will be no resolution, I can almost guarantee.

Soon, we'll have to resolve ourselves to calling these instruments, in the most generic fashion possible to not offend anyone, as "tonal hand steel". Or possibly something even more obtuse that will probably be less endearing, and most likely, quite pleonastic.

Simplicity and clarity.............. handpan.

Hi,

yes, because of what happened with the "Hangdrum" I ask me the question about Handpan.

Handpan stand not! for the Hang at the moment. This is clear to see on youtube and google.

Frank

And as with the term "Hang Drum" , the term HandPan is in the collective consciousness. I am guessing it is now the duty of forums to regulate popular thought. Ahhhhh the power of the internets......

Hi,

I dont think that only the few people who use the term "Handpan" at the moment are the collective.
You can find more than 1000 Hangvideos on youtube. Only 3 Players use the tag "Handpan".
Only the new instruments like Halo, Caisa, Bell and so on use this term.
Is that the collective?

They copy the shape from the Hang and after that they want to "dictate" under what "generic term" that Hang stand? I wonder a little bit.


Frank

Handpan replaced Hang drum for the public. Now we must find a replacement for Handpan? Call a Hang a Hang, and let the others classify themselves as they may. In this spirit, we preserve the sanctity of the Hang name, separate it from it's influenced counterparts, and allow the new family of instruments to stand on their own.

Ahhhh but we forget, without the Hang, there would be no others. No other what? Hanghang? Of course not.....! Hang influenced hand played and tuned steel resonance bodies ? (HIHPATSRB for short. )

Maybe we should refer to this family as "Not Hang". Short and precise. And offends no one....... for the moment. :O