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Hi,

a new video from the Bellart Bell is online. Lluis has made a good progress. Maybe it is helpfull for him, that he start without any experience in building steelpan. So he dont must forget his old tuning technics.
Does anybody know, what kind of sheet steel he use? Is it nitrided steel?

http://vimeo.com/4222272

Greetings
Frank

It is a very interesting experience to view a video without sound. Because the audio out of my laptop is still broken, this is all I can do at the moment (I think I have to visit a friend to listen to the sound). But when you only view the moving pictures you can notice some interesting details.

I noticed that the Bell is played with the thumbs with a high velocity. The thumbs are accelerated very high to meet the metal. I know that this is the way Ravid Goldschmidt plays the Hang. But Ravid is a bad example for Hang playing techniques.

What I see is what I would call "drumming" the Bell (or the Hang). I would like to see and hear the Bell played with the fingers. This would show us more of the character and the abilities of the Bell's sound.

More I will write after I had the possibility to listen to the sound of the video.

Ix

Yes I would say (with no more information than what is shown, so could be wrong) its necessary to generate the full sound, real percussive.
Reminds me of the first generation Hang.
The man must be applauded for his results, "astounding" !

Hi Ix,

Some parts are played with thumbs and other parts with fingers, or a combination of both. But no "high velocity", nor only hard strokes. In this video I tried to demostrate more for the palette of sounds, including harmonics, soft playing, percussive playing, centre (ding) sounds...

I think is a bit risky to make such asumptions only based in what you see...

For the techniques, why do you say that Ravid is a bad example? I don´t want to go that way again, we can discuss that in other part of the forum, but who say whats the right technique for a hang?
Maybe you don´t like his technique, but from a "purist" point of view, AFAIK Ravid is the only person who was living in the hanghouse for a year, helping and learning from the Hangmakers, so his technique would be the "purer", not a bad example...

I had no direct experience with the first gen Hang, until recently. Ruth, a friend from Jerusalem was here playing the Hang and she bring her first gen Penta C. The sound and playability between the Bells and 1st gen Hang have nothing in common. One thing that I noticed and Ruth or other people who visit my staudio say is that is easier to make a good sound out of the Bells than from the first and even my secong gen Hang. The playability is way better than the first gen.
Even for me and in my experience (not too much, but I think I`m not a newbie anymore) getting a good sound from the first gen. is difficult, specially for the higher notes.

Finally, I think everyone have his own technique, and the only way to find the sound you look after is trying yourself, those videos is just me playing, but there are more posibilities. Also, the Bells is still a work in progress, what you see/heard its in the final stage but more improvements are in the making.

Josue.

PS. glad you open this new forum!

Frank, Luis use steel processed with several steps, nitriding is one of them.

@ Synthi.
Thanks for the extra info, its real difficult to "see" what it would be like to play an instrument just based on a vid.
I recently had a Caisa on my lap, under my hands and sound live to ear.
It was only then could I make a assessment as to the "quality" of the creation, said far more than all the vids I'd seen.
I for one meant no negativity, was just trying to figure out where the development had got to.
Once again this is a remarkable achievement.

I know its nothing negative!

I`m just taking the example for making my apreciations, since I had the oportunity to have a 1st gen here for a side by side comparison past week.

Very interesting to see this, and quite a surprise to see something so developed.
I want on my website to offer people some links for a range of other options besides the hang, though the website is almost entirely in Spanish - is there any information in English that I can link to? I am also interested to hear if there is a waiting time for people to be able to buy, and what sort of cost is involved, and how well the instruments can hold their tuning.

Regrettably I'm still not able to say anything to the sound. I visited a friend this afternoon to hear it but all the time I was there vimeo.com had technical problems to load the videos. White lettering on a red bar said that they are working on and thanked for my patience



I can explain, why I said thad Ravid is a bad example for playing techniques:
When people begin with the Hang it isn't so easy to get a good sound. The tonefields seem not to ring enough. And intuitively they try to play harder to get a better and louder tone. And then they detect that the easiest way to play harder is to use the thumbs. Then they notice that the clicking sound of the thumbs is to loud and disturbs and they think of a solution for this problem and they begin to play with gloves or put rubber rings round their thumbs or something like this. And on this way they miss that the Hang is a calm instrument that has to be more petted or plucked than struck to evoke its "true" sounds. Therefor a well known player, recording CDs who solely plays with thumbs and gloves is a bad example (example in the meaning of guide). And referring to Ravid's "purer" technique because of his Hanghaus stay: I've never seen Felix or Sabina playing with the thumbs (only). Both have a completely other playing style than Ravid. It is his personal style. I didn't say that he shouldn't play this way. I said it's a bad example (guide) for people who begin with the Hang.



I think this is because it is a fairy tale, that it easy to play the Hang from the beginning. It needs knowledge and experience to evoke the "true" sound out of the Hang. I needed over a year to find it out and I'm still learning more after three years. And when you are familiar with the 2nd gen it doesn't mean that you can play the 1st gen and vice versa. The most important condition is that you have to learn to play with less strength to get a louder tone. This is completely against intuition and therefor difficult to find out. And especially for the Low Hang, the second generation and the IH it is important to adjust the Helmholtz resonance. Without this, the Hang refuses to oscillate freely, the sounds seem to be "arrested". It can be very confusing when you notice that the Hang sounds sometimes free sometimes "arrested" and you don't understand why.



And nice to have you here! One of our aims especially with the "world of sheet steel sounds" sub-forum was to create a place where interesting and factual conversations about sheet steel instruments can take place. So we appreciate to have you here.

I hope I find a possibility to hear your video at the beginning of the week and than make a statement based on the whole experience.

Ix

Bahh! you must repair your speakers!




I understand your point, but again, there is no "oficial technique" for playing the hang. And in the case of an official guide, I`ll be the first one to broke the rule. I love the kind of sounds Ravid get out of his Hanghang, but also I love some slow melodic I heard from other players, and the pure percusssion using only the Ding and the outsides of the tone fields... I think the correct technique is something personal. I know you enjoy the nuances and the slow and melodic playing, so probably you developed a personal technique to play that style (or maybe the opposite, your emotion guided you to play in a certain way), but I can´t see a correct and bad technique. What you call "true sounds" maybe are not the sounds that other people are looking for...
In my personal experience, I`m a keyboardist and I had no problems to get sound out of the Hang from the begining. I was some time playing just with my fingertips, and later I introduced the "thumb-finger" technique and later the "thumbs for the left hand". and I use the technique acording with the style I play. I know I`m far away to master the Hang playing, but I develop my technique based in my requeriments and the sounds I like.
Taste is something personal, music is something subjetive (in the composers point of view), and the way to get a sound is a personal travel.
Even the most rigid rules for classical music and instruments have different techniques. I know a violin player specialist in pizzicato and stacatto sounds, thats the sounds he like and the sounds he play from the very melodic violin instrument: percussive sounds! Can you think what was the reaction of the purists when they saw a man playin a contrabass with fingers in Jazz music? do you think the have a bad technique because they don´t play it with an arco? of course is not a good guide if you want to play contrabass in the symphonic orchestra, but maybe you don´t want to play that music!
I`m just saying: we have a wonderful instrument, its "virgin" in the sense that no rules are made, its a free instrument, why to put limits from the begining?



The most disturbing thing when trying the 1st gen Hang and the alto Bells is that they have one more note than my 2nd gen! I`m used to the location for the notes and the new position for the notes get my hands out of the hot spots
But about playability I mean that everyone who tried (I mean people who never saw a hang) can get some sound out of the Bells from the first time, its easier. I think its a good thing from a beginer point of view.

I know what you say about playing softer to get more ringing, its just physics about a spring-mass membrane. playing louder will give you more volume but also more harmonic distortion. the key is the trigger, the total time of the impulse. The shorter the impulse, less damping for the membrane, and thats more resonance and more volume without harmonic distortion, with less force.
But again, some people will prefer the harmonic distortion or the sound of the membrane excitation using more force than shorter impulses...

I like you makes me use my head..

Josue

Samjjana,

The only information in existence is what you see in the webpage. For all the questions you ask just contact Luis (the Bells maker).

Yesterday evening I could watch and listen to the new Bellart Bell video.
I thought about how I could talk about what I heard in the video. Then I got an idea: The best way to explain is, to let you hear what I heard. Therefor before I write anything, here are two videos: The first is the new Bellart video. The second is a video of Ravid Goldschmidt playing two 1st generation hanghang. Because Ravid has a similar playing style like Josue in the Bellart video, the two videos are comparable. So listen to both videos one after another without any break between them:

http://vimeo.com/4222272
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_fKoQrdxgzs

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If you didn't listen to the two videos, please go back
and listen to the videos before you read the following!
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Did you really listen to the videos
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If you didn't listen to the videos the following can't be meaningful for you.
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My opinion about the Bellart Bell doesn't change after listening to the new video. I think Louis should give himself and his bells another year of learning and development. I appreciate the Bellart Bell as a good student's work but the instrument isn't yet ready to be given in the hands of the players. I hope you could hear the difference between the Bell and the 1st generation Hang. It's difficult to describe it in words. There is something in the sound of the Bell that doesn't do the ears good. It's a question of balance. Balance between the tones, between the tones and the corpus and balance in the single tones.

Ix

I think the judgement that Luis should wait another year before selling his instruments is too harsh. A lot of people are very interested in the Bells. The sound in my opinion is ten times better then the Caisa for instance, and the Caisa sells (sorry for you Caisa owners, just my opinion ). I'm sure Luis will have a lot of satisfied customers. I do agree that in a year's time the sound will probably be a lot better of the Bells. But a very nice instrument is already here, even though in your opinion it falls short in comparison to a first gen hang.

Perhaps Luis is trying to recreate the exact sound of the hang, and the bell is a result. Then you could say, his attempt is unsuccesful. When I listen to the bells video carefully, and try to compare it to the hang, the biggest difference in sound character that strikes me is the overtones. In my opinion / feeling (judging from these video's) the harmonics 'overload' quicker on the bells. Meaning you get a sound with fundamental and the two overtones at full strength right away, which make for a different sound. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of taste I think, I could use the word 'fuller' but I could also use 'crowded / busy' to describe it. That being said, I would love to have a bell too. I have checked out the tunings and there are quite a few I very much like. I think I'd like the sound of the hang more. But to be fair, the only way I will know is to try and hear a bell live..

So maybe PANart should have not released their Hang until 2008 when the pinnacle of their development has been realised with the Integral Hang???

People have to start somewhere and they have to be able to fund their research... I think the Bell is excellent example of a new Hang variant being born and I salute Luis for his efforts... I think the Bell is an excellent contender but would still love to see and play one in the flesh.

IX I watched both vidoes and can see where you're coming from, but I also feel that these instruments are different and although the Bell is not to everyone's taste in sound quality (maybe) I think that is the beauty of individuality... if everything was the same, it'd be boring.

I think your comparison is not fair...

I`d like to play the Hang (or Bells) as Ravid does, but is not the case. He is a professional player, Obviously I`m not. Also we are not using the same technique, Ravid have atyechnique, and I try to find my own...
Of course, if we had a video of Ravid playing the bells in that same room and with the same mic placement, that would be another thing.

I only can say that when I tried the first gen Hang, I couldn´t get the sounds you heard in the Bells video by far, thats what I mean when I speak about the playability. I just can speak from my experience and for the people who visited my studio and tried the Bells. And of course my personal opinion is subjetive and I know it, thats why I`m censoring myself all the times I speak about the Bells.
I just made a couple of demos, showing how it sound when I play it, no more. I recorded myself playing for 15-20 minutes and extracted some highlights from the improvisation.
Of course, if you try to find all the details and nuances that the Bells is capable of doing just watching me play, you`ll got just a tiny picture.

I think the mistake is taking my videos as a kind "professional proof". They are professional in the sense of the gear used for the recording and the way I made them, but not for the player!
ITOH, I think if you just want to see and heard how the Bells sound when played by something "normal", not by a very experience or master player, someone who resembles 90% of the Hang players, than maybe those videos are more interesting and showing you more than if was made by a master player.

Finally, and again I`m speaking subjetively (But with direct experience, I think thats the key...), I think the Bells at this stage (Remember that what you see and heard in this second video is still a work in progress!) is superior in sound and playability than a first gen Hang, I`ll compare it to a second gen Hang. But you`ll have to try it to find it!

Best regards,

Josue

I think your example -- and strong encouragement to really listen -- is a perfect way of making a point about things that are hard to talk about. That said some differences come from in technique and recording...



With great respect for your opinions Ix, I disagree strongly with your idea that Luis should wait.

My own opinion is that this instrument is ready to be played today.

Indeed, I would (and finances allowing, will) eagerly get one as soon as I can. Assuming that it stays in tune, which is not yet known, perhaps not even by Luis?

I totally agree that the Bell is not a Hang, that it is not a "replacement" for a Hang, and that it does not sound exactly like a Hang. It would be a mistake for people to get a Bell and believe they know ("have") the Hang.

But as a *Bell,* to my ears this second video demonstrates an instrument that is already subtle to play, and to my tastes wonderful to hear.

It is certainly the most Hang-like instrument we have yet heard anyone other than F&S demonstrate -- and I say Hang-LIKE with the belief that the comparison is in this case justified. I hope you would agree that the differences, even if very essential as you argue, are *relatively speaking* somewhat subtle.

Compared to alternatives like tongue drums, the Caisa, or the Halo -- this newer "Dominant 7th" Bell has delightfully familiar qualities in how it sings. The harmonic "bloom" and cross-excitation made me sit up and say "wow." The action of the harmonics around the Ding -- um, Ding-like central dome? -- is to my tastes wonderful. The "pitch bend" effect of putting pressure around the DIng-dome is really exciting; I can't do that on my 2nd Gen.

Who knows. If Hanghang were readily available, perhaps I might choose personally to wait to see how Luis develops his craft, and perhaps to never be interested in one...

...but for the people who have no hope of playing a Hang *this year* -- or for several years -- it is infinitely better than nothing at all.

I would much rather have something this good, today, then wait a year, or more, for the next generation. (Also, I would personally be proud to help Luis continue this work as a way of life...)

Even for people who would prefer a Hang, I believe there are serious reasons to consider a Bell I think, just as it is today.

E.g. not everyone prefers the evolution of the more active resonance of the Integral Hang.

But it is the availability of new and interesting scales; of an "alto" voice that extends well beyond most 2nd Gen sound models (and the Integral scale); and the opportunity to request custom scales, that are most exciting! For me and for many others (I predict) these are very compelling reasons indeed to want a Bell as soon as possible.

(None of us know where F&S might go next, but there is definitely no reason to think they will go "back" to offering many tunings, extended pentatonic sound models, F or G Dings, custom tunings, or "drier" instruments, etc... )

Again, I understand I think what you hope improves or evolves into the instrument; and indeed, I too look forward to hearing how next-generation Bells might develop. Who knows, it may even become truly Hang-like at some point...

...but for me, and for others who do not have (and never will have) any access all all to Hanghang with non-Integral sound models, with F-Dings, the Bell today (well, this year...) is a wonderful new option indeed.

And as I said... all the better if we risk-taking early adopters, who understand we are getting a "first release" of an instrument than will no doubt improve, can help fund Luis' evolution!

aaron

A quick note for people with a lot of money in the pocket...

...being me, I took a quick look at the Alto F-Ding tunings listed on the Bellart website, and was pleased to learn that a great number of them would compliment a C-Ding (I give up, I'm going to call it a Ding on all these handpans!) Halo in Ake Bono very nicely! (Or Pygmy should that ever be offered...)

"Compliment" meaning, they could "jam" well together, without dissonant intervals. E.g., the Dominant 7th Bell in the latest Bellart video has *no* dissonant notes compared to a C Ake Bono Halo. They would mesh completely, melodically.

How a Bell and Halo might compliment, or clash, with their very different timbres remains to be heard, of course... caveat emptor! They definitely are very different and wouldn't mesh like two well matched Hanghang!

(Me, I hope that a quite interesting ensemble might be possible, not entirely unlike a string quartet, with each instrument offering its own timbres, even across overlapping ranges...!)

(Btw the Integral Hang would mesh quite nicely with a good number of the Bajo D-Ding scales, but I haven't looked at that too closely yet. But there are only a few Bell Alto scales that would allow jamming with an Integral Hang.)

aaron

Let's not miss the interesting argument by driving it to the extremes! You found a really interesting point but you must see it in the right relation. If you read my post again you will find, that there isn't a comparison of the Bells with the IH but with the 1st generation. And if you change your question accordingly it meets exact the point I want to state:

So maybe PANArt should have not released their Hang until 2001 with the 1st generation?

YES, this is what I mean! If PANArt would have begin to take orders and sell Hanghang in the middle of 2000 I would have said exact the same I wrote in my last post. Some of us know the big prototype hang in the Hanghaus or the two little prototypes there. Is anybody here who think these are instruments ready for the hands of the players? No! Ask Felix and Sabina, I think they will say: We didn't really understand what we were doing at that time - or something similar.



At this point we have to be very carefuly to understand what we are talking about. Kelly wrote:



So forget the Caisa. The topic here are "Hang variants" and "contenders". The Caisa is this not. It is a concave Steelpan so it's possible to play it with the Hands. That's all. Who like it shall play it. But this is not what we are talking about in this topic.



And here I have to disagree, Kelly. You cannot speak on the one side about "Hang variants" and the Bell being a "contender" of the Hang, and then on the other side harmonize all differences with the "beauty of individualtiy". If the Bell is a variant and/or contender of the Hang then we have to ask whether it meets the quality of the Hang (and I am realistic and don't compare it with the IH but with the 1st generation - don't forget this!).

And at this point of my argumentation I want to answer to a statement from pulpfiction1:



It's important for me to declare that it was not a judgement but an advice. At this point I will explain the motivation why I wrote this in my post. And therefore we have to think of the short but already existing history of Bellart: Some of us will remember the start of Luis' website a year ago. He built an advertising website at this time and made two advertising videos. His instruments sounde extraordinary terrible but obviously he thought they are good enough to be presented. At this time he obviously did understand very little of what a Hang is. He got very harsh critique. Then we heard nothing from him for a year and then we got to know Josue's first video. And obviously he had learned a lot in this year. And now the internet stroke back! As you said, pulp: "A lot of people are very interested in the Bells." Within the year Luis was working an learning, the Halo hype had raised (2300 people on the list... It will come soon, very soon, very, very soon...) And this hype now began to overflood Bellart. Luis opened his own list and announced he would be ready in 2009. All people only cry: LUIS!!!! WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! ... How great it sounds! Lovely! Nice! I will one! I can't wait! etc. etc. etc....

Here we have a big difference to the situation when Felix and Sabina began 2001 with the 1st generation Hang. Nobody wanted the Hang. They went to the Frankfurt Music Fair to open a chance for a market for their new instrument. In the first time they gave discount when you bought more than one. There was no pushing and hype from a world wide market. So they had the room to develop and learn more. And when the aggression of the internet went to strong in 2006 they cut their internet connections and closed their website.

I think Luis need more people than Ixkeys alone who say: Don't listen to the international crowd of voices crying WE WANT! WE WANT! WE WANT! Delete your waiting list. Stop advertising. Learn more about the properties of the Hang shape, the nitrided steel, the special Hang geometry of the tone fields. Don't think you're yet ready. Give you and your instrument more time, more room, more stillness. Give the works of your studies to those who are interested in your near to a fair price if you need money. Sell to the international market not until experts for the Hang sound will confirm that your instrument is good enough (and I say it again: Not compared with the IH which is eight years further, but with the first generation). If you do so, your instrument will have good reputation and wil not be a low quality hangdrum for the mass market and those who play it for a half year and then lose interest.

Ix

Perhaps we would all be happy, if only Luis said on the website, "This is a work in progress, and today if you like you may support my work by buying a Bell Beta -- what I make now... It is not the finished work, the Bell will get better (I hope), but perhaps you would like to play my works in progress since it is so difficult to get a Hang?"



I am sure you do not mean "the Bell is a low quality hangdrum."

The Bell today is not a low-quality instrument -- is a good-sound Bell. It is already not a "drum" I think.

Respectfully as always, I disagree with you again Ix; I do not believe that people who cannot play the best instrument (most advanced, most sensitive, most subtle, etc.) will necessarily "lost interest."

This is not true of any other instrument, why would it be true of something so unique and magical as the handpan?

Even if the Bell today were not a good instrument -- and I think it sounds good in the recent video -- there is a long tradition of people learning on "OK" instruments, until they become sufficiently skilled (and interested) to invest in a "very good" instrument. I know many professional musicians who spend the first half of their careers playing "OK" instruments and learning both to love and hate their limitations... it is just how it goes. Some I know never have had money to get a "proper" instrument.

In this case there *are* no "OK" Hanghang -- and the Bell seems like it will be a fine option for this case.

Example from my own life: I have here in my office at work a truly terrible guitar. It is awful. It doesn't stay in tune. The frets are worn. It never had good tone. Etc. Etc. Yet, I play it every day, I experiment and sometimes despite the bad instrument, I make good music, something beautiful. (More subtly, I think I sometimes play better *because* it is a bad instrument; I must apply all of my skill to get a good sound... this is a different point, and is really true for someone who already has skill perhaps, but it is interesting...)

As I argued above, I believe it is far better that people who have no chance at playing a Hang, play something as good as the Bell today -- even better than a better Bell, next year, if they are not interested in waiting.

That is *my* advice both to Luis, and to potential customers... if you like what you hear now, there is no reason to hesitate. Assuming it stays in tune, there is a lot you can learn on the Bell today that will only make you a better Hang player, if/when you are able someday to get one...

aaron

PS I agree that the hunger for the Hang makes the whole "market" (bad word I'm sorry) crazy and irrational. But considered calmly, and even with a Hang to play, I still am very excited about both the Halo and the Bell. I will be very excited to play them... especially while I wait on the list to get a proper Hang!

Last post in this topci today I promise, but I thought I would just mention my opinion...

I have been listening now to the Dominant 7th Bell and Ake Bono Halo playing together on my computer for a good while now. I am just looping both so they combine in different ways each time; I tried to set the levels pretty close.

Of course, the playing styles and recording techniques are very different, there is no "music", just the sound of the instruments together.

Me, I think it is very interesting and promising. The timbres are as I said (and we can all hear) very different, but the tuning is quite close and they do work together in an interesting way. I think the difference in timbre will make even tunings that do not extend one another allow them to each have a clearly heard separate "voice." This will be both a blessing and a challenge of course depending on the situation.

One last idle comment: if hypothetically you were to combine a Dominant 7th or King Island Alto Bell, an Ake Bono or Pygmy Halo, and an Integral Hang, you would have a very interesting combo.

The Integral Hang centered on A and D would require care to not "clash" with the others...

...but with these three tunings, you would have Dings of C, D and F -- and then every note from the G below the A on the Integral, through the C above the Integral's high A, missing only the F#/Gb and B.

Not *quite* a chromatic pairing but quite versatile, as long as you don't mind the different timbres.

(My 2nd Gen has the Integral tuning, and I hope to find a way to afford this kind of combo... I would *love* to be able to jam in duos or trios...)

aaron