hangforum.com - The Archive

Hi,

from time to time people who want to help Phanteon use this forum as an information board about the work from Kyle. No problem.
So, i think it is also a good place to think again about the different philosophy behind Halo and Hang.
It is an very old slogan: ""You shall know them by their fruits"

At the moment Pantheon sell a Halo on Ebay. About this Halo Kyle himself said, that he was not happy and satisfied enough with the result. So he dont want to give it to a regular customer on his list.
And now a person should pay more money for this Halo as the price for a regular Halo from the workshop?

I quote Kyle. He wrote on the auction: " This is the first Halo ever to be offered for sale on eBay. As a rule, our Halos are available only via direct order, and we are not currently accepting orders. Our waiting list is quite long and growing, and this is a rare opportunity to acquire a brand new instrument without delay. Fewer than 150 Halos have been shipped so far."

Kyle know, that he could have more money if he tell people that it is not easy to buy a Halo and that it needs patience. So, he play with the hope from the people and want to make money with this hope. A shame.

But hey. It is for his friend. I would build two regular Halos and give the money my friend. But I am not Kyle.
He want to sell an Halo for a big profit on ebay. This is for me also a bad signal in Panart´s direction and their way to protect Hanghang from Ebay speculation. It is nice to know that they dont sell Hang at a loss.

So, I know that Kyles friends and a few people will strike against me, because I post this. But before I please you to think about what a big shouting it would be if Panart would sell a Hang on ebay. But this is only hypothetical and will never be happen.

I ask Kyle a few questions on youtube, but he delete my comments. So, I search for an save place. Understand this as an open letter.

Frank

Hallo,

after one night thinking about that, I have a few notations and additions.

My main problem is not, that anything is not fine with the tuning of this Halo.
The problem is, that Kyle himself was not happy enough with this Halo + that he said in the foretime that no Halo leave the workshop if he is not 100% confident with the instument.
I try to imagine the situation. A friend from me is in a bad situation and needs money. I want to help him. And than I remember a Halo what I could sell on Ebay for a lot of money. I was not confident with this Halo, but hey it is for "charity". In this circumstances nobody will blame me.
Why not sell the best Halo in my workshop for my good friend? Because I could not get money for the other Halo from a regular customer?
It was on a special christmas offer , but nobody want it. So, this is a good chance to sell it?

And what is the signal Kyle send in the world?
It is no problem to sell a Halo on Ebay! If you are in a bad situation you could sell your Halo on Ebay. By the way. A lot of Ebay Hang sellers speak about this bad situations in their life.

One side effect. Kyle and the people could maybe see, that the Halo on Ebay is a very profitable deal. The market price is maybe higher as the price in the workshop.
What do you think will Kyle do, if in the future people come to his workshop, buy a Halo and sell this Halo for the real market price on ebay?
Would he say: "Hey it is ok. I do the work and you got the money..." ?
Or would he say: "Ok, the market price is higher. Let´s find out, what is a good balance to make the most profit". ?

How does business work in the world?

And what should Panart do if Kyle ask for much more money , because if not people make cash with his work on ebay?
Could you imagine the situation, that the Halo is much more expensive as the Hang? Is this the result?

Only a few things to think about. I know, that I cant explain very accurate in english. I have no anger in me at the moment. I only wonder how the world works and that a lot of people seems to be blind.

Greetings
Frank

Frank,

There is a very simple answer here: Don't bid on this Halo! I hope I have saved you from terrible disappointment.

Anyone else who has similar thoughts should not bid either!

In fact, I have an idea for everyone everywhere considering buying anything: Do not pay more than you think this thing is worth to you. It will help you avoid disappointment.


For this particular auction, I see Kyle as not wanting to sell a new Halo that he was satisfied with when there are still people waiting for their Halos. (Frank, I suspect you are going to use this as another opportunity to attack Kyle, since that seems to be your main aim.)

The Halo in this auction was experimental, and therefore a kind of "extra." Kyle is able to help his friend, and it is fair to the people still waiting for their Halos.

Frank, I am virtually certain that you would have cried foul if Kyle had done exactly what you proposed instead.




Sure I can imagine it. And I don't see it as a problem. Why worry so much about the price of things? There is an implied judgment here that this would be awful. But that judgment lies on top of numerous assumptions and other judgments.


Yes, I think Kyle understands standard rules of owning something. The owner is free to do with it as s/he pleases. Play it, put it in the attic, melt it into metal and re-form it into jewelry, make it into a sculpture, give it away, sell it, etc.

He has asked that if people are considering selling their Halos, they consider contacting him so that he can buy it back. But this is a request, not a demand or requirement.

Hallo,

@Todd. You miss the point and talk around the subject. My keynotes are others. But it is a good tactic to set the people on the wrong track.
I am sure, that other people read more carefully what I wrote and think about the keynotes.



This means, that he dont could build an good Halo for his friend, because he must only make the Halos for the people on the list? Who made the new scales Halos? This are also extra Halos and in that time people must wait on their ordered Halo. Strangely. To you think people are so stupid?

Frank

Because of the circumstances in my life at the moment, I don't have time to engage Frank in another fruitless argument.

However, I feel it is important to quote here what I responded to him at handpan.org, which is another forum for discussing the Hang and instruments like the Halo inspired by it.

For those who aren't aware, I have been volunteering to help Kyle by doing things like answering customer email.

This is my personal response, however, as one Hang and Halo player to another.

As we say in the 'Merican English:

Peace out!

Addendum: I haven't bothered to read it closely, and shan't, but I see Frank is also concerned on behalf of waiting customers... in which case he probably overlooked the fact that this was offered to every customer who was awaiting a Tharsi or closely related Halo, but the handful of those customers asked declined it... I know, I'm the one who asked them.

-------------

Frank,

everyone who bids on this Halo is encouraged to listen to it first and make up their own mind what it is worth -- if anything at all.

If you don't like the way this instrument sounds, by all means -- don't bid.

Something for you to consider:

I got own second-generation Hang second hand -- but it went through PANArt on the way to me from its seller (who lived in Bern).

It suffers from the *exact* same issue Kyle describes with this Halo -- more than usual cross-excitation of the upper three notes.

Indeed, the issue is more significant, because on my Hang, it gives it a character quite unlike other Hanghang.

Both Felix and Sabina played it, perfected its tuning and commented on it before I bought. They declared that the cross excitation was not fixable, simply an artifact of a poor decision made during its manufacture.

Yet, this Hang was sold to someone at full price. I know, I have the original receipt.

There was no "disclosure" or decision to withhold it. It was simply quietly offered for sale, in hopes that someone would find value in it as it is.

Today, if someone listens to Kyle's lengthy demonstration on the instrument, reads the description, and chooses to bid... knowing that the profits are going to help someone in a medical crisis...

...with more total transparency and disclosure than PANArt showed when selling this Hang...

...where is the problem?

And how will you draw a line that still gives the result you want?

I do not resent that PANArt made this decision.

Quite the contrary.

Hence, I am giving you an example, from first hand experience, of why even an "imperfect" (sic) instrument is capable of giving great joy.

Indeed, I love my Hang and would not trade it for the finest FIH.

Its flaws have shaped my playing style and relationship to it, but the many hours of mindfulness it has given me are worth more than any price.


How then can you be critical of someone pursuing the same relationship with an instrument no worse?

When they are told explicitly to listen and judge with their own ears?

No need to answer, I am sure you will think of something, and I will not absorb it any more than you absorb this.


Someday I hope you make the mistake of enjoying listening to a Halo, and perhaps then your heart will change, and you will learn the pleasure of playing one.

Until then, though, this kind of thing is just sad.

There are better uses of your hands and your time.

Play, and be at peace.

And then, there will be light.

aaron

Hallo,

@Aaron.

I am not sure, that you read my postings.
The problem for me is not, that this Halo is a little bit "different".
You miss also the point.

But I understand that. You are something like a spokesman from Kyle and
Pantheon.
At the moment I see, that you and others dont answer on my keynotes.
What you do is what politicians do if the have no arguments. The pick up a few secondary objects and make them to the main topic.

Ok. Only one point again, because it was your tactic to explain that Panart do the same.
You spoke about your second generation Hang. The most second generation Hanghang were sold direct on the Hanghouse to visitors. Panart build a lot of Hanghang and after that they invite people. On such a visit the buyer has the choice between a lot of Hanghang. At my visit maybe 40-50.
It was clear, that I could buy one. Maybe there was also your Hang in the Hanghouse at this date. You bought it second Hand. But the original buyer was not under pressure , that this Hang is the only one he could buy at these moment. He had a big choice.
The Ebay Halo is the only one, you could buy at the moment, without a big waiting time. Only this! Not a choice. This or nothing. No choice!
Do you understand the difference?

Kyle know that the wish from a few people is to big and they will buy this Halo.
Another big difference is, that Panart is confident
on all the Hanghang in the Hanghouse. The will never offer a Hang if they are not confident it is good. This has nothing to do with "cross-excitation" or not. If they are not confident, they dont sell it.

Kyle was not confident enough with this Halo to sell it to a regular cusomer. Todd said it was an kind of experiment.
Do you understand the difference?

Again! I do you only the favour to explain a few negligibilitys because you make this question to the biggest problem. A good tactic to confuse people. People who dont must defend Kyle will read a little bit more carefully and think about that. I am sure.

As I wrote in my first post. I am not surprised about the reaction from a handfull people. I knew that before i made my posting. I had a foreshadow who will blame me for my posting and i was right.

Greetings
Frank

O Frank, your such a laugh!

Yes, you are right. But what is your argument?

Frank.... perhaps it is the fact that you are even trying to create an argument.... as you have made the statement that you knew what would happen prior to your post. It is your intent to create controversy, despite the fact that all of the facts are presented. You decide upon yourself to post at another forum when you know what the reaction will be.

It seems that your point is to state that Kyle is attempting to sell a deficient Halo for an inflated price, and that it would not be something that PANArt would do. You are also trying to point out that there may be some form of deception on Kyle's or Pantheon's behalf..... perhaps using the charity benefit as a means to sell (and make a huge profit from) a Halo on the open market.... more precisely , Ebay. Your argument, or point of awareness (whatever your perspective may be) is to call Kyle and Pantheon out (and apparently those that you see as Pantheon (Phanteon, as you spell it) defenders) on some kind of foul gesture you are portraying him to be presenting.

To what end do you do this Frank? To defend Panart and to point out differences in ideologies? To enlighten the public about Kyle and Pantheon's deceptive marketing practices? To stir up unnecessary controversy to create attention? To fulfill some sort of self ordained mission to outwardly protest anything beyond the doors of Panart? What is your personal stake in this Frank? Have you been so blemished emotionally by these instruments, and sound sculptures that you find it within yourself to make these issues personal?

Yes Frank, your posts have been read, by many. And as you feel there is a small, dedicated contingent of over zealous Phanteon followers, perhaps you should turn the mirror upon yourself. Your first post in months on the other site, is done with more than just a friendly gesture of enlightenment or education. It is a provocative post, meant to incite argument rather than discussion. YOUR tactics and speech are those of the politicians that you liken the Phanteon zealots speech to.

Frank. Let it be. Embrace your Hang, and it's ideology. Love it for all that it is. But let the rest of the universe be. It's not your mission.

"Music=Life" Frank. You say it yourself.

I have covered all points of contention, I hope. If not, I do not care to express them any further. It would only be re-stating what is already there. Just read again....... or play some music instead.

Be well.

Thats just the point Frank - why is everything an argument? - I have tried to go through as many posts of yours as I can, and I have to say the bulk of them appear to be either provocative, unapproachable, inflexible or argumentative.
I just dont get it mate.

Hallo,

@maxthewoodman.

You join this Forum because it seems that this is an important topic for you. And all what you did was an personally affront against me. So, I ask you what are your arguments about this topic. That was all.
I am sure, that you read not much from my other topics on this forum. Ok, a few postings are maybe similar as this at the moment.
But this is the result of the behavior from people who copy the Hang shape and do what they want without thinking about the affect on the Hang.

Frank

Your right - it is an important topic to me - mainly because I have recently purchased a Bells and am so impressed with the tonality, harmonics and depth of the instrument. I had a Hang several years ago and thought that it would be a hard act to follow, and Im really glad the Bells is such a good alternative. Im afraid I dont share your almost religious fervour for the Hang. At the end of the day these instruments are the same as any other. They sing when played well, and are a fantastic vehicle for self expression.
It seems to me the difference you 'argue' about are the makers perception of their instrument - nothing more - nothing less. All handmade instruments are sacred in the way you describe.

If the Bells musical response and dynamics was questionable I might be prepared to agree with your comment about people who 'copy the shape of the Hang..' but the fact is its a superb instrument. As is the Halo. As is the Hang.
My comments about your posts wasnt meant to be a personal affront, and I apologise if it came across as such. It was simply an observation on my part.

Hallo,



I dont speak about the Bells on this topic and I dont speak about the quality of the Hang copys. I wonder a little bit, why you are afraid dont to share my opinions. You dont must fear anything. I am only a Hangplayer.
It is another topic, but only a few words about your concern.
And now I speak only about the quality of the instrument. Not of the "how and why" of the maker. I am sure I said this in the foretime on this and other places. The Bell is in relation to the Halo much more similar to the Hang. I never said, that the Bells has a bad sound.
Ask the thousands people on Kyle´s what the would do if the have the free choice. There is a batch of Hanghang, another of Bells and Halos. Ask them, what is their real longing. They can have one of this immediately.
Ask yourself. Yes, you! reader of this posting.
Without the Hang and Panart, Kyle would make steelpans.
He could only sell his Halo for so much money, because so much people wish to play the Hang and cant have one immediately.
It is to much to ask him for a little bit respect to the consequences also on the Hang?

Yes, Hang is for me more as only the instrument on my lap. This has nothing to do with religious fervour. I know a lot of about the Hang history. I know Felix and Sabina personally. You cant cut this shape from the path of the life from PANArt.
To make only a copy without respect on this shape, is maybe on the first step a lucrative business. This singing steel has an big impact on the players life. And without sense of responsibility it could have very bad effects.
And because of that, I only want to open eyes how some people (in this case Kyle) act.
This was the topic. Not the qualitys. Again in short words.

Step 1. Kyle said he will never sell a Halo if he is not confident with the result.
Step 2. Kyle build a Halo (maybe as an experiment as Todd wrote). He is not confident enough with the result to sell this Halo to a regular buyer on the list. Step 3. He offered this instrument on a special christmas deal, but nobody want it. Step 4. He sell it on Ebay for a higher price as the original price on the shop.

This told me a lot of about Kyles´s approach. He play with the hope of people. Read the auction text. He know, that the wish from people is so strong and he find somebody who will pay for this Halo. He press home the advance that the demand is so high.
Without such a high demand he could only offer this Halo with a big discount.

I am a little bit sad, that people who act in this way, use the singing steel, after they copy the shape from people with a better vision of the world.

Sorry for my bad englisch. By the way @Danny. If I wrote Phanteon instead of Pantheon it is only a "slip on the pen" and not my intention.

Greetings
Frank

I think there is nothing more to add here.

I have yet to have anybody properly explain to me what these bad effects could be, or by what mechanism they are delivered.
Any thoughts?

It's a little off topic I know, but this is a silly, combative topic anyway.

Hallo,

I post my thoughts about this topic in the next days. It is likely that I open another more generally thread about that.
We speak about that in the foretime and I will search for the postings, also.

Frank

OK Frank, i'll be interested to see it.
You're right i've asked about it before - not been able to find a detailed response yet, though there is alot of allusion to the potential ill effects of Hang misuse.

Frank, your charge of "No choice!" is richly ironic, on several levels.

I am not interested in further discussing the issues raised here, so this will be my last post on the topic. Any response seems to be twisted into additional negativity against Pantheon Steel, and I don't want to further contribute to that, though I have faith that most people reading this will come to their own reasonable conclusions after considering the various ideas presented here.

Hi,

I agree with you 100%.

Frank

Sold. Halo marketprice= US $5,229.00

That is more as you pay for 3 Halos from the workshop at the moment.