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I cannot see anything that is different to the normal hammer marks each Hang has. Hammer blows on the edge of the tone fields are part of the tuning process so it is clear that there must be hammer marks. My Free Hang has them as well.

But the photo is blurred. Perhaps what you are speaking about is not shown. So let's wait for a better one.

Michael,

my 1st gen Hang has non of them, nor other earlier hang i have seen. and trust i have seen them so many since Panart has refused poeple in tuning.

this can be a tuning bumps, but that is rush tuning you know...

go to any experienced pantuner and ask him if that is normal tuning traces!

http://postimage.org/image/hq3vz0war/

i have pointed out what i mean, but i will get more detailed pictures in a week.

Victor, I think this is probably the reason for your problem: Pang is a quite different material and the Rohner-Schärer tuning process is different too. They use other hammer blows and the material reacts different.


I think this obversation is correct. The hammer marks in the younger Hanghang are more pronounced than in the earlier ones. These are the visible signs for the maturing of PANArt's tuning process over the years.


I think the contrary is right: The more pronounced the hammer marks the more intensive is the "Pang massage". You should be more careful with your assessments.

But let's wait for better photos to decide whether those light-colored spots are normal "Rohner-Schärer hammer marks" or not.

i thought you are going to say that.

but Pang doesnt make a difference for accurate working. please understand me right.

there is no other "close" profession, so i choose to compare pantuning.

but the key and accent is on accuracy of hammering, not pantuning methods.

the pang massage doesnt mean that it can not be smoothed afterwards...

such a shame Michael that you dont tune yourself...nor work with the metal...

claiming that rough surface and edges is an achievement and maturing, are you serious?

the thing is Michael, that very early Hanghang have them too....

then they disapear after 1st gen around N 2000 and higher.

and they appear again in the FIH?

i have missed your message.


it is possible, depending on the tools you use, but i am talking about bumps right on the edge, almost around the tonefield!



even thickness would benefit the overal performance of the vessel.



how far can it be out of 1:2:3 relation? what about chords relation?




i have spent 3 days with that Hang, trying to find something special in it. it's owner doesnt play it anymore after he got one of mine...

Michael, you should know that i can touch the tonefields much sensetive than many people can as this is my daily profession.

about the article: i can not read German, can you give a link to the source?

Hello Victor,

on the photo is nothing, what you cant find on any Free Integral Hang and also on the last generations.
That is what I said. Between your tuning technic and the tuning technic from Panart are worlds. It seems you are at the moment confused, that something on the Hang is different as you read and learned about tuning.
I recomment to read the work from Achong.
Nothing is wrong with your way to work and tune. Panart goes similar ways a long time ago. But they goes a long way. 30 years of experience.
They dont use a template to mark the tone fields. They dont use goniometer, measuring tape or something like that.
It is not about a smooth shape and surface.
What you see, are the marks from the hammer.
You speak about tensions on your instrument, victor.
Please do me a favour. Can you explain a little bit more, what you are speaking about?
What kind of tensions? How you bring these tensions in your instrument, without leaving hammer marks around the tonefields?
Why you need those tensions?

Again. I am Hangplayer, not a tuner. But you are coming to these place to talk about tuning. Fine. I have the feeling, you will discredit the work from Panart at the moment. I think I know a little bit the reasons.
Please answer on my questions about the tensions on you instrument.
Define it a little bit, please.
It is likely, that I will not understand all, what you will explain. But I can learn.
I am realy interested. Please dont avoid my questions. Thank you!

Frank

I wondered the whole time why the look of the Hang tone fields is so important for you, why you think the look is related to tuning quality.

And then I remembered that you visited Eckhard C. Schulz. Indeed Eckhard builds quite smooth pans and he is proud of this. Can it be that "any experienced pantuners" is Eckhard?

Did you ask Trinidadian tuners about that?

I had a conservation with Eckhard C. Schulz some time ago and he told me that PANArt has no tuning system. He was proud of his own tuning system. I know exactly where the partials are and where I have to place the hammer blow, I can tell you on the telephone where you must place a blow and you will be able to tune your pan, he said to me. On the Hang I cannot find a system, he said. He was so focused on his own tuning system that he was unable to understand, that PANArt has a tuning system that is completely different to his own. He thought it was a lack of tuning quality.

It seems that currently you do something similar: You are so focused on your own tuning method, that you don't see that the differences on the Hang are not lack of tuning quality but the results of a different tuning method.


This is obviously the point you have difficulties to look at it form another viewpoint than your own. No, it is not possible. Each hammer blow introduces stresses into the material. These stresses are PANArt's main parameters for tuning and sound shaping. Therefore any single hammer blow which is done only for cosmetic purpose is an undesirable hammer blow.


I am not a tuner, that's correct. But I understand enough about PANArt's tuning process to be able to see that you have not tried yet to find out why the Hang looks different to Eckhard's or your instruments. Instead of this you call PANArt's work "rush tuning". Therefor, yes I am serious when calling the rough surface and edges an achievement and maturing. So what can you do with this estimation from a "non-tuner"? Ignore it because he is a "non-tuner"? Or perhaps use it to achieve a better understanding of Hang tuning? What is a shame here?


Is this a guess or did you try it out? Did you make experiments with gluing shells under tension? Was you able to get even thickness in these experiments?


The source is in the linked Wikipedia article: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_(Musikinstrument)#cite_note-23

This is an English translation of the paragraph about free tuning:
"The central focus of the free tuning are not the mathematically exact frequency ratios of the partials of a sound field, but the effect [German: Wirkung - This term has some connotations I am not able to translate] of sound. Even the steelpan tuners of Trinidad used slight detuning of the partials in order to achieve a distinctive sound character of their own instruments. Anthony Achong has demonstrated in an acoustically-mathematical analysis, that this detuning is the most important parameter influencing the duration of the partials, as well as amplitude and frequency modulations in the structure of a steel pan tone. The absence of the tuning device at Free Integral Hang tuning allows the Hang tuners to use these parameters consequently and to focus on the design [German: Gestaltung - This term has some connotations I am not able to translate] of the sound during the tuning process."

Michael and Frank the problem is that you both actaully know nothing, you have zere experience.

therefore you can only speculate, or repeat what you have been told - like parrots do.

but you act like knowledgable, advanced professional, claiming things that make serious people smile including some tuners.

Hang from Panart is no a holly grail, the methods they use are far from been perfect.

more so, and i hear this from most respectable steelpan tuners: "i never saw a good steelpan from F. Rohner, they use best materials, they do researches, but tuning and building..." and they smile...

Michael, Frank when you will get tiered of writing pages long of rubbish?

let the PEOPLE speak for themself, you dont do them any good... dont you understand?

Michael, i have asked you about the link to the source, not to the text written by you.

but that is true! Panart has no system, as each note is tuned differently!

you have to be a tuner to understand that!

i have tuned so many Hanghang and each note has its own way of tuning!!!

even Dings of the same tonality are tuned differently all the time.

Echkard knows what he is saying, remember that he tunes not only his pans for festivals and steelbands!

the problem is in you Michael, that you trust only one person and it is Felix Rohner.

you whole world is based on that relations. take it away from you - and you have nothing in your life, i am sorry for you.

I linked exactly to the source information. You must klick yourself. I cannot do this for you. My translation was an additional service to give a sort of abstract what you can learn from this source.

Victor, I would prefer to argue about the topic and not about my person. When I have false arguments disprove them. The way you are reasoning about my person is evasive. If you are so much more knowledgeable than I it should be easy for you to deal with my arguments instead of attacking my personal reputation.

Victor,

please answer on my questions, about the tensions.

I know, that you have a personally problem with Panart. If you want a discussion, it is fine. If you only want to use this place to spread wrong informations, and discredit of the work from Panart, you are on the wrong place.
Please lets speak about the topic.

Frank

Michael, i agree that have stepped over the line. perhaps i shouldnt have. but please understand me: i am angree because you choose to discuss the topic you have no experience with.
the way you respond about other maker, having now insight knowledge of their work.
ofcourse i will get to your personality if you choose to behave publicly like that!

in case you had the opportunity to try both ways - then we could discuss the results.

it is plain physics - the closer is the mechanism to an ideal system - the better it performs.

any imperfection is getting in a way of sound formation or sound transfer. poor boundaries lead to a loss of acoustical and mechanical energy inside the note. any dent in the mode will inhibit the vibration in the mode.

Panarts material allow them to make "mistakes" and still have a decent sound. it doesnt mean it can not be made better with more accuracy. do you see my point?

me, problem with Panart? please expand here! i dont know any problem with Panart with me, maybe you know better than i do?

i have disagreement about Panart ways, that is true. and that is one of the reasons i am here:


to cut the bullshit!

what is your question about tensions? i think i have missed it...

the tensions are brought by hammering at the boundaries of the note aswell as around the note and between the notes.

how not to leave them? simple answer: accuracy! mm by mm, smoothing afterward, ofcourse that will need more time and powers to achive, but why to bother? it works? then it is fine, right?!

how steelpantuners are able to sink smooth shells? a lot of precise work, that is how.

now imagine that you boundary is an ennomerous ammount of springs that are holding the dimple.

now as we know from physics any parallel combination of spring will result in summ of forces of elasticity of those springs. that means that if you dont make even distribution of tensions around the note, you will not be able to get to the potential that your material can give.

those bump are signs of uneven distribution of tensions in the note, you see?

"the way you respond about other maker, having now insight knowledge of their work." This sentence doesn't make sense. Therefor I think there is a typo and you meant: "the way you respond about other maker, having no insight knowledge of their work."

Please read carefully what I wrote! I have never written something like this. I wrote:

"I had a conservation with Eckhard C. Schulz some time ago and he told me that PANArt has no tuning system. He was proud of his own tuning system. I know exactly where the partials are and where I have to place the hammer blow, I can tell you on the telephone where you must place a blow and you will be able to tune your pan, he said to me. On the Hang I cannot find a system, he said. He was so focused on his own tuning system that he was unable to understand, that PANArt has a tuning system that is completely different to his own. He thought it was a lack of tuning quality."

There is nothing said about Eckhard Schulz's insight knowledge of his work. I said something about his insight in PANArt's work. The same I said about you: Nothing about insight in your own work only about your insight in PANArt's work.

So your assessment of my personality is obviously based on misreading my posting. I hope realizing this you are able to calm down.