hangforum.com - The Archive

since when critics are called "spreading wrong information"?

what i want, and i have said it before, is Panart to make a proper job and stand behind their words.

and just to do their job!

why somebody has to do they job?

you know how many Hanghang come here for retune? is that my job to tune them? Hell no!

am i speaking about Eckhard? i am talking how you choose to speak about Halo, Bells, other makers aswell and not only in this conversation.

it is ok for you to critic their job, without proper knowledge. but it is not ok with you when someone critics people words of wich you believe in.

Or did you perhaps misunderstand the following passage as my words?:

"I know exactly where the partials are and where I have to place the hammer blow, I can tell you on the telephone where you must place a blow and you will be able to tune your pan, he said to me."

This were Eckhard's words not mine. It was his statement about his work not my statement that I know everything about Eckhard's work.

you say that Kyles Halo tuning is not as good as Panarts... but how can you judge?

wich parameters do you use for that?

this i understand correctly.

i am not talkiong about Eckhard, look above - i have already answered you.

Victor,

it is easy to read, that you have a problem with Panart. You made this statement on my question if we should meet at Panarts workshop.



It seems, that some of your conversation was not very friendly or respectfull?
But this is not the place to talk about so private things.

I ask you again. You speak about tensions on your instrument. How you could manage to bring the tone fields under tension, without leaving hammer marks?
If you talk about tensions, what do you mean precise?

You post, that I know nothing about this work. I think you are wrong

It is likely, that I understand more about the tuning system on the Hang as you.
Read carefully. I speak about the Hang. And there is a difference between your tuning and what Panart does.
Only, that you cant understand the system, means not that there is not any system.
You have a problem. What you are search is not easy to see with your eyes. So, you must try out, what is going on.
You have a very complex system under big tensions. The first impact of your hammer will damage this system. You hit the Hang and from this moment with
any hit the balance will be more and more destroyed.
Yes, there is another secret as only a 1:2:3 relation. You cant do nothing except "try and error". After a view hits with your hammer, the original tuning system from Panart is destroyed. How you could learn from a "pile of broken glas"?
Of course you have the skills to tune the Hang from now with your own system. It is not longer a Panart Hang, but a Hang tuned by Levinson.
Again. The hammer marks you speaking about are not there, because a lack of work. They are there, because they must be there.
That you dont understand the reason, is for me another confirmation, that between your tuning and Panarts tuning are worlds.



I agree on this point. Hang is not the holly grail and we are not "knight of the coconut".
And yes, Panart is not perfect. They are humans. Learning all the time.

Please answer concrete questions. And stop to make personally statements to discredit me or Michael. I understand the psychology behind that.
Beliefe me, that I am realy an expert on this field. There you have likely no "good cards" in your hand.
I am confident, that people who follow this topic are clever and they will see, if you are only talking round the subject.

Please explain me, for what you need tensions? How it is possible clamping the shells and leave no hammer marks?

Frank

Victor,

i wrote my last posting before you post a lot of. I post it anyway and will read your last postings later. Now I have not much time.

Frank

Frank, i mean after this conversation. and you knoe what? i have tried to run this conversation with them in private. but no one is interested.

wich exactly, my post are reaction to your guys behavor now an in the past.

dotn you remember how you bad mouthed other makers? are you in position to critic some ones work? what have you done in your life to be able to do that right?

the tensions? Frank, what is teh tension in the string? why it is important?

how could you leave no marks? i have answered you! accuracy! precission, hundreds of hammer blow instead of just one! proper tools!

tension: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tension_%28physics%29

will that do for you?

Frank, you have never worked with metal, how can you say things like that?

there are ways to work very smooth leaving almost no visible marks, and on the opposite that will take a lot more effort and time of yours!

now here you are wrong again, wich shows lack of your understanding...

it is possible to feel and see how the fieled is done, just by looking and touching the fiiled i know where to place my hammer to tune it.

I think you are following hearsay.
Please show me, where I have "bad mouthed" other makers.
You could find all the content on the archiv. Nothing is lost.
Or do you confuse critical questions with bad mouthing?

So, please...

And answer my question with a little bit precission.

Thank you!

Frank

now Frank, dont you think that you have started it? by accusing me that i have no proper knowledge?

if you would stay with facts(and my tuning abilities is not a fact for you) this whole conversation would go in a different way.

So, for today I will do something different.
A lot of Scampis in the kitchen. I must chop garlic, baking baguette, drinking white wine...
But I will join the discussion tommorow...

Frank

We posted in the same moment, therefor I was not able to reply to your reply that I didn't know when I posted.



I wrote: "Compare a Hang with a Halo: The Hang tone fields look rough compared with the Halo tone fields. Is this a sign for worse tuning quality? No it is a sign for a better tuning quality. The tone fields of the Hang are made in a complex process. During this process they are hammered up and down many times. It is like a massage. It is not possible to do this without leaving hammer marks."

My parameter is the sound. My statement is that the Hang has a better sound quality than the Halo. More exactly: The Halo sound is a long sustain. The Hang sound has a characteristic "shape". The sustain is not so long. So you can better dose the sound while playing.

As far as I have understand it the reason for this difference is that Kyle tunes almost flat plates. Together with the thick material this leads to a long sustain. The cause for the shape of the Hang sound is what you call rough and "rush tuning". Hang tuning means to design the form of the energy transfer between the modes. It is not the target of the Hang tuners that all three modes shall oscillate uninfluenced by each other as long as possible. Read my English translation of the German Wikipedia pararagraph: "influencing the duration of the partials, as well as amplitude and frequency modulations in the structure of a steel pan tone": That is what pan tuning is about, Anthony Achong (not me!) says (and Hang tuning as well, I say - and Felix Rohner and Sabina Schärer say too as I know from many conversations about this topic).

So this is not a statement about Kyle's insight in his work. I don't have th foggiest notion about Kyle's insight in his work. It is my reasoning why the rough look of the Hang is not bad tuning but in contrary a more elaborated tuning compared for example with the Halo that should be - using your criteria - a better tuning because it looks so smooth.

also Frank,

please remember that i am not english native speaking person, and my words are not "sugar coated"

that means that you judge only by your taste, right?

how can you say it is better or not then? it is only your preference.

should i teach you to express "in your humble opinion" way?

now, i am not fond of Halos sound either. i think the reason is the material and way of shaping as well as some upper partial appearing in the fields.

but can i say that techniacally Kyle tunes notes worse than Panart? no way!
i wouldnt say the other way aswell.

i am sure Panart has their reasons to do it how they do it. but dont you think that in combination with smoothness, precision, accuracy it can be made better?

and then raise your price to 2400 swiss franks?

Frank,

some more wikipedia for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

i will leave further explanation for the time you come back, so we can discuss it. give me a sign.

Michael,

why you have to mix my words?

did i say that smoothing looking is a better tuning on its own?



what i have said is that it is possible to have a combination of both:

whatever style of tuning you choose with accuracy and smoothness.

please confirm that you understand what i am saying, please.