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Time will see how the "new" hand pan instruments will be received "after" a number of paying customers have the things on there laps for a while.
Always assuming they will be honest in their appraisal.
It hurts some times to admit that your purchase didn't live up to your expectations.

I think the prices asked for the alternatives are "coincidently" on a par with Panart !
As far as I am concerned I would rather spend my hard earned cash on a product that delivers and I know Panart does that.

I remember seeing a first generation Hang for sale at 400 Euros in 2001 and thinking it was almost worth the price, yes almost !

I think its very possible that the prices asked for hand pans are directly influenced by the Hang success and shortage and not related to there own worth.

That said you have to be in the happy position of already having a Panart product or the patience of an angle to wait for one.

I've said before and will say again, great work Bellart, one of the very few making headway in this field and to be applauded.

All this is just my ramblings and self opinionated views, but they are honest, for me that is.

Hi,

i agree with Ixkeys statement that Lluis Bell is not ready to sell it.
I say this, because i feel that Lluis has a good chance to make a good instrument. He learned a lot of in the last year.
I think the two videos Ixkeys posted are very good to compare the sound. The Bell sound is not in balance.
Again. What Lluis has done astonished me. The Bell sound is not bad.

Does anybody remember why all the people want a Hang? I go on the streets with my Hang and a lot of people tell me that something "special" is in the Sound. They are very deep touched and a lot of people say to me, that the Hang bring humans in harmonic vibrations.
A good example what a Hang can also do is the Hangout Uk. Does anybody know another instrument what brings people from all over the world together for a meeting like that? Why this work? Because in the Hang is something very special.

I feel that maybe Lluis is able to find this special in his Bells some day. But at the moment you can hear only ideas from this. He is on a good way.
So, if he go on the market he has within days a list for the next years to build his instrument.
He can make a lot of money. That is ok. But at this point he has no more time for research.
I fear, that a footrace between Lluis Bell and Kyle´s Halo start and they try to make more instruments because the demand is so high. The impact of the quality on the instrument is maybe not good.

PANArt was in a totally different situation. They start with the Hang without any idea that they can make a lot of money. All lucky people who meet Felix and Sabina know, that their first motivation is not the money. They make the Hang in the way of artists.
So in all the years they take time for research. At the moment they are in "Hangruhe". That means they are very busy, but dont make a lot of Hanghang for the market. They have time to research, to understand the Hang better and make it better.

At the moment Lluis has the time to make his Bell better. And yes, if anybody want to copy a Hang (that is what he want) it is fair to compare the result with the first generation Hang.
I hope, that he come very soon in a personally contact with Felix and Sabina from PANArt. I think he can learn a lot of from them.

For me it is hard to imagine that we hear in one year that Kyle is in "Halorest" or that Lluis is in "Bellrest". But this time is needfull to make another instrument with a realy magic inside.
I hope i am wrong and they take the time for research and forget the market. We all know that PANArt does it from the beginning. The result is the Hang.
If anybody want to satisfy the big demand on the market he is doomed to failure.
Maybe he has first an economic success. But without a similar "magic" inside the instrument it is only for a short time.

Yes, the Bell is at the moment an instrument where i hear an idea of the sound from the Hang. At the moment the best result. If Lluis take one´s time to research as he does it in the last year he has a big chance to find the sound who touched the people all over the world so deep.
If not, i fear he make another nice instrument. Nothing more and nothing less. But what is so special on an instrument with only eight notes? It is only the sound!

I wish Lluis luck and wisdom.

Greetings
Frank

Funky, Ix.

I understand your position, but please, understand mine too.
For now, I`m the only one with direct experience.
Of course everybody can, and must have their opinion, but I speak for me and for people who actually played the Bells themselves.
You speak about some nuances and feelings that can´t be reproduced on a video (at least If I`m the player!), and taking your feelings as a truth even if your only reference is the videos I posted.

I`m VERY critic about the Bells, thats why you didn´t know about the Bells until something good could be shown in public. What you say about Bells vs Halo, the race, is absolutely false.
FYI, Luis didn´t know about the Halo existence until Phanteon released their video!

Yo speak about balance, magic, ... I can tell you the Bells, even at this stage not being the final product, have that magic. I`m not telling just my opinion, I´m telling what I see and what people tell me when they try the Bells.
I mean friends, family, neighbours... not only musicians who come here for work.

I mean people who didn´t know what a Hang or a Bells is, and in his first approach, they get fascinated by the sound, exactly the same when they try my second gen Hang or one of the Bells.
Many people even think they are the same instruments, I tell them they are different but they don´t care about that... They feel fascinated (remember the first time you heard a Hang live!)
I heard their comments, their feelings... The most of them after trying all my "handpans" chose a Bells for playing because they feel is easier to play.
Thats the most objetive point of view I have.

Now, in my opinion, subjetively, but objetively in the sense of physical touching and trying, the Bells is a fine instrument that is now in a stage of quality an sound that can be released comercially without a doubt. I think is far better quality and sound than a 1st gen Hang. I know the work done for making one Bells, the processes and the care put in the construction and the detail, and you can be sure is not inferior quality than a Hang.

But, as I said, what I show and what I have here is still a prototype! A new development for improving the Bells is in the making, and I`m confident the release model will be even better.

I think the Bells, the same of the Hang, are instruments who can be evaluated when you actually play them. You know that two Hanghang will not sound the same, and that some Hangs are sounding better than others, thats why you choose one if you go to the Hanghouse...

Peace,

Josue

Agreed with Sounds there.... it is strange how all instruments are being released with a similar if not bang on price as the Hang... but if people are willing to pay it then demand sets the price.

As strange as this is to some, I see no difference in the sound of a 1st Gen hang and an Integral, they sound different of course, but both to me are equally beautiful and both worth the same....

I haven;t had time to read every thread here, they seem to be very lengthy, but great thread none the less!

Hi Josue,
I can only say: Listen to the two videos. Don't care of players virtuosity, don't care of what they play. Don't care of the exciting phase of the tone. Listen to the sound between the actions of the players. There you can hear something of the instruments. And you can hear the balance of the 1st generation Hang and the difference of the Bell.

The Bell is not "better" than the 1st generation Hang. There is yet a challenge for the Bells to reach the sound quality of the first generation Hanghang. I'm not able to describe what it exactly is, but I wouldn't call it "magic". It is physics. It is the way how the concave sheetsteel area of the tonefield oszillates in the convex body. Felix says that it is important to bring the whole instrument in balance. I'm not a Hang maker. I can only listen to the sound and as a player react to the sound and go in touch with the oscillating sheet steel. I think to find out what is to do and how to control the balance is a conversation that must happen between Hang makers and Bell maker.

I understand that your visitors don't find it easy to play your second generation. It isn't easy to play. It needs the correct adjusted Gu resonance much more than the 1st generation. The first generation you can put on the floor as Ravid it did in his video, and the will sound. Do the same with a 2nd generation Hang and it's sound is dead.

I think unexperienced visitors are not the right persons to estimate the quality of an instrument. I think it would be helpful to give the Bells to more experienced Hang players to learn from what they can find out.

Ix

Ix, I don´t need to check the videos, because I have first hand experience. Why I need to see two videos of the beach and the sand if I actually live in the sand and in the beach?

Again, Your comments are based in the videos, but mine are in direct experience.
I`m not saying the Bells is better than a 1st gen Hang, I say "I" find it have better quality and sound (again based on direct experience). Quality is an objetive matter, I found the secong gen have a lot more quality than the first gen: the finish, the depurated techniques for tunning, materials... just having both side by side is easy to tell.
I think you are the one making a judgement without the clues.

Also I find the opinion of "fresh" people very valuable, or is the opinion of the people who got the first hangs is not valid? by then nobody knows about the Hang, playing techniques, nothing... just what they feeled. Just a group of elitist can have a respectable opinion?

I`m finishing this discussion, Its nosense go over and over the same. If you think that with the information you have (two videos of me playing) you can make a judgement as such, then its ok.

Of course, time will tell!

Josue

Hi,

the videos are good for all the other people who are not living "in the beach".



Do you agree, that you make this videos because you hope that a lot of people can see and hear the Bell? So this people can also compare two videos. We all know, that you cant record the true sound of a Hang or Bell. But you can compare two videos.
Your video is made with very good studio equipment. The video where Ravid play not. But I can hear clear the difference in balance.




I think it is valuable what "fresh" people feel about the sound if they listen to the instruments. The first few weeks i played my Hang i was not able to bring a lot of from the true sound out of the Hang. I dont think that a Bell play in such a different way and anybody can play it and see how it sounds. So it is maybe helpfull to have a evaluation from players with hang experience.





It is up to you to finish the discussion at this point. I dont remember, that we go over and over the same. If you copy a Hang there are a lot of questions. Sadly on the most questions are coming no answers. Yes, time will tell. That is the good point.
I think in a few points we only talk at cross-purposes.
If you read what I wrote there is nothing negative against the Bell. I only say it is not in balance and something in the sound "confuse" me. For Lluis it could be very helpfull to contact PANArt and ask Felix and Sabina what they think about the quality of the sound. They have much experience and I am sure, that their answers can help Lluis.

@Josue. The same request i ask Kyle, but he dont want to make it. Is it possible to have a video with only the notes? Seperate played with different dynamic. From quiet and gentle played to the point the sound burst? This is easy to made. I think this help more to hear the sound from the Bell because the music dont draw off the attention.

Thank you.

Greetings
Frank

Frank,

My last message was posted as a reply for you and Ix, but in reality was more for Ix. I know you don´t say anything bad.

I feel that we go over and over because in my point of view, everything can be discussed, but thats not the fact here.
Ix is judging and he emited a veredict.
I think a judgement without knowing or even see the actual thing, is a mistake.

Of course I can show you lot of videos of hangs that sound like s**t and compare them to my video, but thats not the point. I don´t like comparison, don´t like rules, don´t like nothing imposed to a person and I don´t like laws. Well, I`m speaking in general, but much more for those things like sense, art, music or sound.

As you say, the videos would be good for someone not "living in the beach", but when I see a video of Bahamas, I can´t say what I feel, what I smell, what I heard when I was there... Just can get a big picture of something that eventually will give me the desire to go there to get my personal experience.
And if in that bahama videos the only person you see is me, will be very different than if you see a nice blonde girl under the sun, really...!

You say that you can´t get the true sound out of your Hang within the first weeks. Right, when I made this video, maybe a played that Bells 2-3 hours in total!



I think nothing left to be said... I`m not here for defeding the Bells, I don´t copy the Bells because I`m not making it and I`m not comercially involved with Bellart. I`m here for sharing my experience and my excitement about this new instrument. No more.
Thats what I say to finish this (I mean the opinion if the Bells is ready or not, not the whole topic!), I see nobody can put more, we can´t going anywhere.

But I`m open to discussions about physics, harmonics, sounds or anything that feed my intelligence, again I`m not here for defending anything, I`m here for learn and enjoy!



Josue

so in short and not as word perfect as my first try .........

There are gatherings in the uk ,four to be exact all about the didgeridoo, one is very similar to feel and vibe that the hangoutUK has. Also drums attract groups and weekends dedicated to drums and drumming circles.

I feel it a bit unfair to use the hangout to state why the hang is more special than other hand pans..........what makes the hangout the hangout??......the hang??? or the people?????.......ok without the hang there would be no hangout but the people is what i think makes the hangout special...the hangout is predominantly for the hang but all people and instruments are welcome, and i think its this that makes the hangout friendly, open and inclusive, and overall a very special weekend.

Im really upset because i had written a great post that i felt explained what ive said better, this post however was rushed as i lost the last one so please do not read to deep between the lines

nice

Hi Rob,

yes the Hangout is special because of the people. I dont know any other instrument what bring people from so many different countrys together. That was the point in my posting. Peoples from all over the world come to a place to meet other people because they all play or love the Hang. I dont say, that other festivals are not nice with a simular feeling.
If you have such "international" festivals about the didgeridoo in the UK I am sorry, that I dont know this.

Greetings
Frank

hey frank no need for sorry's was not challenging your post just saying that there were other events dedicated to an instrument and that the hang is not what makes the hangout but the hang is like other instruments the catalyst that brings the people together But the hang has gathered some great people from across the world and Frank your right I would agree that the hangoutUK has attracted people from many varied countries than another small gathering do in the UK, others have international attendance but not in the ratio that the hangoutUK does

There is also a didge festival in Switzerland http://www.swizzeridoo.ch/index.html but not sure if it still happens ?? could be a good place to hang out with didge players and they have had hanghang perform there in the past but not sure if it still happens, last i heard was that it was becoming a didge and drum festival but then that could have been just whispers ???

Hi there everybody
i'm new, so i greet you all

what i wanted to say is what i think about the bells. i think they are the best alternative to the hang on the market by now.
first of all i prefer them over all other steel pan because they are made by one single person with love and passion. something similar to what Felix and Sabina did when they started meking the hang.
I know the sound of the hang is better (not so much, but you can hear the difference). but you also have to notice that at this moment there are thousands of vids of people (different people) playing the hang (with different tecniques, too), but there are just two videos of one person (and his own tecnique -that i like very much-) playing the bells.
i think that this also can influence the opinion about this instrument. i mean, if my brother plays a hang, even if it's perfect, i know it's gonna sound awful, because my brother and music are on very different streets. i don't know if the example is clear, hope so
another reason to buy the bells is that, from what i read on the internet, Felix and Sabina are not producing any hang in the next future, so if someone wants to buy one, he has to put his name on a looooooong list, and wait maybe three years to finally get a chance to purchase one.
luis has got a long waiting list too, i know, but from what he says, he's gonna start delivering bells very soon. people with a number around 100 will get their bells on the next january. i'm number 224, maybe i will get it for next summer. it's better than waiting centuries to get a hang.
i think.
well, it's better if, like me, are not already owning one. but it's almost four months that i'm trying to get a hang, and finally i found bellart bells. you can understand my happiness when i saw it, because, even if different from the hang, it has got his unique sound, that is wonderful and hypnotic as the hang's is.
these, from my point of view, are the reason to buy a bells.
ah, i did not mentioned the halo. the problem with the halo, from my point of view, is simply the deposit. i won't deposit 250$ for a thing that i will get don't-know-when. but it's a very good instrument that one, too.
cheers from italy.
dario

Hallo and welcome Dario,

at the moment i have not much time. Later more. But you can beliefe me, that what you wrote about Panart is not true.
They only make a break for research. Let me say: "holiday".
I know (not belief, i know that!) that they are very busy and "very soon" they start again to make the Integral Hang for the people.

Greetings
Frank

Holidays are always nice

I mean... even doctors need holidays, so let's grant them their time.

Four months you say, derio.
There are people waiting for a Hang since more than one year (one and a quarter it is for me, actually).

But you kinda have a point, nonetheless.
Luís is doing some pretty impressive work.

But funky is right, there is no waiting list for "centuries" or something like that.


Even three years sound kinda long to me...

hey there
i know ther're just on holidays, and i'm happy for them.
but, due to this, the hang production stopped for a while.
what im saying is that with luis, we got an alternative that can be delivered earlier. and the quality is excellent.
just this.
cheers

Derio,I am a few numbers before you on the Bells list and Luis told me the delivery is February or March. Also I am sure not everyone on the list will buy an instrument. A lot of people put themselves on a Bell, Hang and Halo list and just wait what will happen... or decide to wait longer to have a Hang.
I am wondering if Luis already started the production of the Bells

i don't know.
me, i'm only on luis' list. but i know several people did what you said, so maybe the list will be shorter than espected.
i don't know if luis already started the production. from what i saw on the videos, and my personal opinion, the instrument can be considered ready for the production. but maybe he wants to improve the sound further.
i think the only one who can help us knowing more is synthi, the skilled player who plays the bells bajo and alto in both bellart trailers.
are you there synthi? can you tell us something more?

big cheers
dario

When I asked Luis the last time he said that he's still in a development process...
And in my opinion that's the best, because we have the certainty of getting a Bell in the first two quarters of 2010, so why hurry?
The longer Luis focuses on his work, the better the Bell gets and the more people can have fun with a new instrument.

i agree with you. i will wait patiently. the longer i wait, the better the instrument will be. no need to hurry.

Hi guys... really nice TOPIC by the way... Sorry for my basic english level I'll try to show you my feeling regarding all the discussion.

1) I tested the integral hang just 2 weeks ago, one man in Barcelona have one, and he traveled to Bern on 2008 to get his hang. For me (even the tuning unique tunning scale) the integral hang is a great instrument in all facts, materials, sound, ding side looking, case, etc. for me is also the best hang made until now by Felix & Sabina, really easy to make the notes sounds and again looks really accurate instrument than the 1rst. or second generations of hangs... but... because we can't know in which position on the PANART list we are... (I sent my letter to PANART on August 14 / 2008)... and the waiting mode is really hard... I decided to placed my order for a BELL on April 19/2009 (position 194 on the list - I will wait about a 10 to 12 months for my bell<---I hope so)... WHY I DO THAT? because I really love the two instruments, and at the same time I respect the efforts of the two sides (PANART - BELLART) making their hand pan instruments.

2) For me the sound palette of the BELLS open more options for any musician to decide what instrument they want... a hang or a bell? that's the question

3) There's another important fact outside the instruments comparison... and is regarding the communication between the PANART and BELLART makers with their customers... basically Luis always answer any email I sent... but from PANART... I really can't understand why... I didn't get it any response until now, and there's no PANART active email available to ask information about your order, and look's like there's to much mystery all around the hang house and their philosophy.

Have fun people with your hangs, bells or also halo... music is all-around

Cheers