hangforum.com - The Archive

Hi,

we explained the reason in another topic, why we only post under a normal nickname. We are only members of this community. We have the same "weight" as any other member.
The job of an Mod has nothing to do with "opinion". A MOD has to look only for a few things. And this has nothing to do with his own opinion or the opinions from other members.
So I dont understand your comment about the MOD. Have you seen any unfair action of an MOD in this forum?
I think all people see now and in the future how the MOD´s work on this forum.
Funky has not more to say as Imagineye. You have your oponion and I have mine. Other people have different other oponions.
This is not the work from a MOD to think about these opinions.
In a case where a MOD must step in action , all people can see clear the reasons. And this reasons you can find in the "netiquette" or in the "law from countrys".
To have different opinions is not against any law or the netiquette. There is not a law that a MOD has more knowledge as other members.

So, Funky is only a member of the community. Ixkeys and Michael C. also. They have not more "rights and dutys" as any other member.
If they have something to do as an MOD it has nothing to do with different opinions or because they like some members more than others. All people can see what a MOD do. And I see no problem in this forum with actions from MOD´s.
In fact they have not much to do. No spam problem, the members are respectfull and they dont act against the law.
So, this was the reason why I ask you what is the reason for your comment about MOD´s.

Frank

You are correct. All of your opinions have been placed under the funky, not funkymod hat. I understand. Again, this is just my opinion. Maybe I should have used the term "feeling" or "sense".... as opposed to opinion. And maybe for me, the nature of the open dialogue creates an underlying feeling of "educating the public as to what is right or wrong in reference to the Hang or things Hang related".

Some of the same, non-ending friendly exchanges, that created the "need" for another forum to be created, (well that and spam, as I understand) still persist here. And again, I'm not making judgement, just expressing a "feeling". And this comes from no one direct action, statement, dialogue or example. Just a sense of my own intuition from the general direction of certain perspectives on all sides that have persisted since, and I would imagine before I became involved with this community. Maybe I am too involved to make or have unbiased "feelings". But it seems that at least some of these feelings are echoed beyond me.

So, when asked again whether I understand the mod/admin/member relationship you or others may have in this community, I can say yes, I do indeed understand. And I understand that no direct opinion has been called from the mod or admin station. But that does not negate, nor nullify my feelings. Be they as they are.

On too many levels I think there will always be differing views for many on these key subjects that are too often discussed, dissected and regurgitated. There is rarely an agreement to disagree, nor to compromise. And to what end, to establish opinion? Who WILL have the final, official word on what a Handpan is or isn't? Or how we can guide the free market? Or what genus/species these instruments should be classified in? After a while, meaningful discussion on these subjects becomes tedious.

So, with that said, and the history of these discussions being at least partially responsible for the formation of a new forum with a "new direction", and the history of the basic viewpoints being steadfast from the same sources, it makes my "spidey sense" tingle just a bit. So to ask if any mod or admin has had a direct point of contention, I can only answer "no". But if you ask if I feel that I am the only one with these "feelings", I will also answer "no".

But we don't live in a black and white or yes or no world. And that is where my "feeling" perhaps dwelled in the realm of "opinion" for a brief instant. And for that, I am sorry.

My comment was a read-between-the-lines joke, hinting at my belief that I think it is ridiculous to think that the culture of Trinidad and Tobogo is in any way disrespected or compensated by the use of the word HandPan . It would be equally as ridiculous, but in quite the same vein as what you are saying about disrespecting Trinidad, to state that the culture of Trinidad actually disrespected the oil companies who produced the oil drums that they cut open to make their instruments with.

I have a suspicion, only a guess and certainly not a fact, that Felix does not like the term HandPan as a good description of the Hang because of the very fact that he was denied respect and acknowlegement for his Pang and Hang creation by the people of Trinidad themselves when he presented it to them.

As stated before, the words Pan Art and Hand (when translated) all exist within the name of the Hang. Lets go out into the public eye, show them the Hang and what it sounds like, tell them the name is a Pan Art Hand, and see if they think HandPan is an accurate description for this instrument. I would be willing to bet that 9 times out of ten the average person would accept this as a great descriptive term. If PanArt is no longer selling Pans, their name is quite contradictory...

Ok lets make this a democratic vote and perhaps end the back and forth.

My vote goes to........... "Handpan"

Sorry, I just could not resist:

Hand pan:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... N%26um%3D1

Here's an AKEBONNO hand pan:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... N%26um%3D1

All seriousness aside. We cannot just vote a term into existence. Only time will tell which term wins out.

Still, when all is said and done, it seems like handpan will rule the day.

The missing link (a handpan that still sounds very similar to steel pan) (someone posted this before): http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=% ... =N&tab=iv#

"To how many chances at living clean and green are we 'entitled' before Mother Nature's cycles return to cull our species again?"

Hi,

@Danny. I read your posting. If you feel in this way it is your feeling. I have a different sight on this forum.
You can read in this thread what the reasons for this forum are:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=75

Nobody said, that this has something to do with opinions or discussions.
I have the feeling, that you come with such phrases intended to kill any further discussion.
In germany we call it "Totschlagargument". Sorry, i cant translate it more accurat in englisch.

Frank

Not trying to kill any further discussion Frank, just stating my opinion, and echoing what others have also said in their responses. There have been many instances where members have stated they felt the conversations were going in endless circles. This is not just my opinion.

But if you feel more comfortable stating, re-stating and re-engaging the same conversations, by all means, please do not stop.

I feel that I have tried to add constructively, and minimally, in this thread. And I am sorry if you feel my opinion is a way to stop discussion on this matter. It's just my feeling, on this particular subject, that despite strong opinions on differing sides, ultimately it will be the collective that decides how the word handpan may be adopted into the common vernacular.

From the hang booklet of 2008:
"His [a percussionist's, who had left his steelpan for tuning] attempts to play the various resonating objects that were lying around the workshop--with his bare hands, rather than mallets--gave us the impulse to pull a couple of PANG-metal shells out from under the workbench and into the daylight. One of these had seven notes already tuned into it. Put together, these two shells turned into a sounding ball! A new acoustic instrument was born."

Again, there is a fairly direct connection from the steelpan to the hang. I am not trying to minimize other developments before and after they put the two shells together as described above, but I don't see how the similarities can be discounted, either.
Again, the similar forms of the steelpan and hang are quite obvious to many, many people with whom I've spoken.

And I do not plan to write again unless I have something new and different to share, in the interest of not taking the conversation in useless circles.

Hi,

this was only in relation to your comments about Mod´s and the reason why we made this new Hangforum.

Frank

Should a name for an instrument category be chosen by democratical voting or by Jon Doe?

I say: Clearly not. Such classification names should be chosen carefully by people that have a good understanding of the topic. And in this case they have to understand both the Hang and the Steelpan.

It's really a problem that most Hang players have no or only little connection and knowledge about the world of steelpan. And this is as well understandable as an argument agäinst the name "handpan": Hang players have no connections to the steelpan because playing the hang is something different than playing the pan. The Hang player is looking for something different. The Hang is not a pan.

And therefor we hang players should be careful when we are using the term pan. We should ask for advise from those who have insights in the pan culture before we concludingly estimate the term "handpan" as adequate.

When Frank says that Felix Rohner said the Hang is not a handpan it is not because to end the discussion because Felix had decided already. The reason is that Felix is one of those who knows the Hang and the pan culture. Therefor we should take his statement into consideration seriously. The statement only isn't enough. It requires more information and arguments. So you see the discussion isn't at its end. It has just begun.

Ix

@Ix
So why not educate us and tell us why it's inappropriate to use a, for the uninitiated, very fitting term for the Hang ?
I don't know the real reason that Pan is a "wrong" term but it is beginning to sound as if this is almost a religious/belief thing.

Funky,
If you can not hear the steel pan element in the sound of this hang video then I apologize for wasting your time (and mine). You live in a different universe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka1oRS4h ... annel_page

Nobody denies the historical connection of Hang and steelpan. But the steelpan isn't only a historical instrument that is not longer in use and only an ancestor of the Hang. No it is a currently used instrument as the Hang is. So in the time line the steelpan is both one of the ancestors of the Hang and a current instrument along with the Hang.

Currently you see and hear the steelpan and the Hang and you see its similarities and its differences. And what we see is that Hang scene and Pan scene doesn't have connections. The Hang isn't used in steel bands. Hang players don' know much about the pan culture. The steelpan is loud the Hang is calm. The Pan ist played in the steel band, the hang is played solo or with few other instruments. The Hang makers emphasize that playing the Hang is something complete different than playing the Pan and Trinidad didn't accept the Hang as a member of the Pan family.

So there are important differences that makes it reasonable to put Hang and steelpan into two different categories. In an upper category they both belong to instruments of tuned sheet steel. But under this category we have to differentiate between Hang and steelpan.

Ix

Hi,

yes, i can hear steel pan sound elements in many Hang videos. Mostly it is the result of hitting the Hang very hard and playing a little bit "over the limit".
@rp. I dont know exact, but I think with my meetings at Panart, the Hangout, my Hanghang, friends Hanghang, meeting other players and so on and on I heard more than 80 Hanghang in real and test out the most of them. I know how a Hang sound in real. And I know also, that you can make some sound aspects similar to a steelpan on it. If you hear the Integral Hang, you see that Panart is on a way in the direct opposite to the Pan feeling.

Greetings
Frank

I'm only a Hang player who has a few insights in the pan culture that I've learned from Felix. By now I'm not the one to educate the Hang scene about pan culture. What I've understand about the differences about Hang and Pan I have outlined in my post before this post.

I think it is important to understand that Pan isn't only an instrument. It is a culture. Therefor the Pan means more than hammered sheet steel. Therefor Pan is not a synonym for hammered sheet steel.

Ix

Did you hear the noise of the water in the video? It is very loud and forces the Hang player to play the Hang "over the limit". This Hang player didn't realise that this wasn't a suitable place to play the Hang. The Hang needs the stillness. This is one of the main differences to the Pan.

Ix

I think this may be where the differences are focused.

It is clear that a solid-sheet-metal instrument category fits the Pan, Hang, caisa, kettle drum, gong, etc. (but not the Hank). It is also clear that the Pan is a Hang-ancestor. It is clear that the Hang is a new creation that is hard to categorize. It is also clear that the instruments that the Hang inspired, and could be considered an ancestor to, are varied and can be difficult to categorize sometimes.

So with all this the issue (I think) is that the Hang-purists (for lack of a better category) are convinced that the Hang stands all on its own and should not be lumped in with anything else. The typical bystander (who says something like "hey, is that a kind of steel drum there" when they see the Hang) is not so caught up in the differences in metallurgial components, maker's intentions, or playing style. These two extremes are represented to different degrees here in the discussion, along with etymological and sociological impact.

All that being said, is it wrong to try to create a category that describes an solid playing surface of metal (steel usually) that is tuned with multiple harmonic notes? If not then there is a risk that the word Hang will be used as Xerox, Coke, etc. to describe the category. Without 'allowing' the categorization of an object into a useful class there is that risk that the name of the object becomes the class. I feel that the terms Ding and Gu are at risk for this as well.

NB: "Should" doesn't come into it; language will evolve as it will, each of us may approve or disapprove, but the process will unfold.



Not sure, Ix, if you were just stating this as an argument, or stating it as YOUR perspective.

Either way, I disagree completely with this statement.

To pick up and play an instrument, or, if you like, to sit down and interact with a sound sculpture, requires no historical knowledge, it requires an open ear and and an open mind.

As the 'sound sculpture' has made quite plain, most of us agree that the very reason we are drawn to the Hang, and taking time out of our days to try to remain close to it through secondary means, like this forum, is that that is *particularly,* in many ways uniquely (for our own experience), true about the Hang.



I am sorry for those who feel otherwise, but for my part, it is I think time to say quite clearly: I feel absolutely no injunction or moral responsibility to defer to anyone to use a word.

Furthermore, I myself feel *no moral imperative whatsoever* to defer to anyone else's (presumed and second-party) claim to the word "pan."

If I understand correctly, Frank thinks that it is *inherently* disrespectful, and very likely to breed confusion, at best, and feelings of offense, at worst, if I use the word "pan" (inside of "handpan") while speaking to some hypothetical steelpan player/maker/etc.

To which I say, if that hypothetical person feels offended, I would offer my sympathy, and engage in constructive dialog, but personally, (a) I doubt that that hypothetical person who would be offended exists, (b) if they do, they are probably of sufficiently rigid and narrow mindset that I will not likely be speaking to them long, if ever, and (c) ultimately the farthest I would ever go is to agree to disagree with them.

One can understand, disagree with, and even deny or ignore, someone's wishes in a respectful way. Indeed, to do so is the foundation of civilized discourse -- and civilization, in the rare moments we collectively achieve it.

The point being, I have no wish to offend anyone, but I also will not be bound by someone else's offense -- especially, hypothetical offense.

To put this another way: I take as article of almost religious faith, that ideas want to be free. (That's a formulation of the idea that I did not come up with, obviously it is not literally true -- ideas do not have wants -- but it's quite useful in a metaphorical way.)

The steelpan was and is an idea. The Hang was and is an idea.

I am an absolutist in my belief that it is one of the core gifts of humans to share, embrace, and improve upon each other's ideas.

I don't want to get into a side topic, but the natural question this perspective always provokes is, should patents and copyrights exist in limited form, to ensure that within the context of our contemporary monetary and political systems, an innovator can be rewarded (well, renumerated) for their work?

Yes; that seems a necessity, given that context.

But the perspective that goes beyond this unfortunate necessity of current social structure, and says that once an idea has been created, all thereafter must defer to the creator's particular desires...

...that is utterly foreign to me, and I actively oppose it.



And, as I have said, as gently as possible, that goes even for Felix.

Evolution: the mutation of ideas.

Parenthood (as I am learning, a day at time), is a process of watching with chagrin, and learning to celebrate, that your children will always in the deepest ways find a way to be other than you imagined they would be.

The steelpan may be Trinidad/Tobago's child. Felix and Sabina adopted it and made it something yet more wonderful (to our tastes). Others now mutate again. Look at the children! The Caisa and the Halo. Soon the Bell. Will the Blackbell ever breath, or was it stillborn?

Not all mutations are desirable. Some will suit some niches, some others; some will fail entirely; some will find success in undreamt of places.

Language will evolve and mutate, beyond all our efforts to control it, for it is the expression of collective opinion, not the authoritative individual.

All an individual can do is cast the seeds, ideas and words, and try to water them.

"Handpan" is a word-seed. My original response on this topic was only to point out that that seed has taken some root.

In theory, the *only* way it will "die off" is if a more fit example is planted at once. But I've said before, I think it's already too late.

Don't hate the gardener, or the garden.

Thankfully, when I picked up my Hang this morning, and played as well as I ever have, to my delight, words were the farthest thing from my mind.

For a moment, I was only the feel, and voice, of steel.

Three cheers for singing steel!

aaron

If it were only a hammered steel sheet then there would be no problem in using the name ?
If it is more than a hammered steel sheet, a culture as you say, then someone should be able to tell us what is wrong with using the name assuming it "is" culturally disrespectful.

Who out there can answer this one ?

http://www.ttcsbc.org/