hangforum.com - The Archive

Hello everybody.

a fellow young pantuner from France has been bringing following link to my attention:
http://www.spacedrum.org/

I have to ask the question to those concerned:
What is this all about? The abillity of western world and it's people to "watch but not see" is far beyond my comprehension!

I wrote a thread earlier this year called "History and Evolution". There's a lot of my standpoint inthere already.
But maybe one more thing: In the Steelpan world, people are fighting for recognition of the Pan as "just another, accepted musical instrument". We are bound to fail, having that aim. The Steelpan will never be recognised as "just another musical instrument".

Why?

Because it is a lot more than that! It is about the singing steel, the material itself. Do you think it's some kind of joke, a fun thing to create sound devices from steel?
A bell is not a joke. A gong is not a joke. A Steelpan is not a joke. A Hang is not a joke.
They are very thought through sound devices. They all did not appear out of nowhere, in order to be able to make some quick cash, or as copies of something already in existance...

To see more and more of shape copies popping up all over the place is already a strange thing to me. But what really renders me sick, that is the peoples reaction. In the internet, as well as in the streets.The approval of it. The so called "joy" people think they experience, not noticing what really matters and what not.

Let me say it again;
There is a right way of doing things in life. One right way. It's black or white, if you wish. All the grey shades "in between" have been introduced my mankind, as a comfortable excuse for our own, manmade mistakes.

At this very moment, I am dissapointed and ashamed of where my western world has ended up, how our "culture" as we still like to call it has ended up. We have become a bunch of sad f***s.

No need to elaborate into details, I sure believe that I've made my point very clear.
Don't even bother stoning me, because all that will happen is that you end up stoning yourself.

we.

uuh, there's so much more, I could be writing about this subject, it would fill a book...

I'll pick the obvious:
The bell by bellart. It ain't no d**n bell. It is respectless to the bone towards any bell maker to call the bell of bellart a bell.

The Handpans: Are you insane? Steelpan lovers do and will kick your arses for that one. The pan is a ritual, cultural thing. How there you to "steal" a term from the small people with a big sound?

Finally, the spacedrums: If this wasn't serious, I'd be rolling all over the floor, laughing off at it.

Once more: Steelpans are not DRUMS. A Hang is not a DRUM. The "Spacedrum", or whatever, is not a DRUM!!!!!!!! How come that a Steelpan maker calls his thing a DRUM? Beyond my comprehension...

The term "drum", as well as terms like spacedrum, halo, bell and handpan have been born out of poor knowledge and education. Fact, that is.

There is one right way of doing things. There is a right way to think, to speak, to act.
And there are many wrong ways. It is not forbidden, to be on a wrong way. But it is just not good and right.

we.

Werner.
If what you describe here is the wrong way, what is the right way?

I quite seriously fail to understand what there is here which causes such anger. Please explain it to me! Consider me deeply uneducated.

Werner. The "drum" thing is no big deal. Over here the the Americas where steel pan was invented we have a name for the raw material from which they are constructed. We call them "drums". Further more, in the U.S. we call them "55 gallon drums". In the land of plenty, where steel and energy are cheap, we have discarded these containers by the millions after just one use. Be happy that some folks in Trinidad and Tobago figured out how to this turn junk in to gold but don't be upset when someone calls them "drums".

@rptalk2me:

Yes, we had that discussion already. Now what can I say if terms, precise language and thought through terminology are "no big deal"?

@MrFox:

I understand that you don't understand what causes such anger, as you put it. Because there is no anger, s simple as that. So please, read my posts again, without thinking that I was angry when I wrote them. I was not angry then, I am not angry now.
Also, I refuse to consider you deeply uneducated. Please, don't come with rhetorics like that, they don't help no one.

Am I the only one to see that it is a "betise" to call a Hangshape-like instrument a Bell?
Am I the only one to see that it is a "betise" to call a Hangshape-like instrument a drum?

And that one comes from a steelpan maker?

MrFox, believe me there is no anger. But I do confess that I start to loose my respect for some of my pan tuner colleagues...

Werner

Werner,
I was not attempting to be rhetorical or persuasive in saying I was uneducated - I believe I know very little about the world of steel pan tuning, about why instruments made from steel are so much more than instruments made from any other material. I want to learn, I want to understand your statements, and I want for you to explain them from the simplest stages because if you dont you may make assumptions about areas of knowledge I do not hold. Please do explain for me why it causes a loss or respect for a steel pan tuner to make an instrument in a hang-like shape. I am not utilising any linguistic trickery here, I am genuinely curious.


As a separate topic - and please do not address this part of the message without first answering what is written above!
You say 'There is one right way of doing things. There is a right way to think, to speak, to act.'
I think here we have a fundamental disagreement that could be a whole separate philosophical conversation. I hold a rather more relativist or even monistic view of the world, and find it hard to be certain about the absolute 'right' way of doing anything! You can imagine I spend maybe too much time thinking about things with this way of seeing the world

Hi,

@Werner . Thank you for posting your thoughts. I am happy, that you share your opinions as a Panmaker.

It is sad, that he people start to use "Drum" in the name on this Hangshape-like instrument. It is sad for the Hang and the inventor of this shape. But!!! It is at least honestly.

I wonder about Steve Shehan. A lot of people know the video about Hang and Panart. On this video Steve explained his view about the Hang.
I wonder that he now allow the Spacedrum makers to promote the Spacedrum with a video from him playing the Drum.
Steve can play percussion on any instrument and it sounds from a percussion player perspective great.

What is going on?
First there was the Panart Hang and a lot of people want to play this instrument. I know that a few people see in the Hang also a kind of drum. If you watch the videos on youtube you find examples.
But this is not the majority of Hangplayers. The most are playing the Hang in another way. They play the Hang to feel the sound. To touch the sound.
This aspect from the Hang is very personal and intimate.

More and more people want a Hang and Panart is certainly not able to build a Hang for all people.
As the result a few steelpan makers and other people who feel able to build an Hang-shape see that they can make a lot of money with this "shape". They see, that it is enough to have a similar shape as the Hang and they can sell the instrument.
A few days ago a self made Hang-shape instrument was sold on Ebay for 700 Euro. The sound was awful, but it was sold.
Here we see, that it works.
There are a few instruments at the moment on the market with a better sound as this self made instrument. But the sound is different from a Hang.
So this companys call the instruments "Handpan" or "Spacedrum" or "Bell" or something else.
For me the "Spacedrum" makers are at the end the only one who are still honest.
This instrument is build for people who want another kind of Drum. They dont say, this instrument has a similar sound as the Hang. It is sad and an factual error, that they also speak on the Homepage about an instrument in the "Hang family".

I watch the story about all the other instruments on internet and the discussions. The first buyer from the Halo speak about very different qualitys between Hang and Halo. I say Different! I know that people dont like that. But different means not a judgement at the moment.
If I watch the youtube videos where people play the Halo, I see that they hit the Halo much more hard as you can play on a Hang. This instrument has also more the quality of a "Drum" as it has the quality of the Hang.
And there are enough people in the world who like this. They dont need a Hang to play. They need this instruments. They need Handpans or Spacedrums. I hope and think they have a lot of fun with this .
The sad part is, that a few people are confused and it is only a question of time and a big company start to make instruments with this "Hang-shape" in bulk production. They dont must care about the sound so much, because people like Steve Shehan show the buyers how cool it is to play patterns on this instrument. And if they are more cheap the will sell this instruments.

At the end people who listen carefully what is going on and what kind of instruments are in the world, they will feel what they need!
If they realy need a Hang it is fine and I think Panart will build this people a Hang. If they are happy with "Handpans" or Handdrums or Spacedrums or something else they can buy this instruments.

Another topic is the "how and why" people shit on the culture of this instruments. This is another endless discussion.

Greetings
Frank

Why are instruments made from steel so much more (or different) than instruments made from other materials?

Let's look at the question from a historical point of view: In the thread "History, background and evolution", I drew a rough picture. As I said there, to my knowledge gongs and bells are the oldest steel instruments of mankind. Read through the pdf-link to have an idea about Gamelan and the spiritual power indonesian people associate with it.

In the western world, the christian church bells stick out. These bells have been (and are)used to call people to church, indicate the time and up to the present day, they ring at the end of a funeral service in my village, to let everyone know that one of our kind has been buried.
Then, lateron, bells have been used by fire brigades as alarm, to announce that the streets be cleared because these men are on an important mission to save buildings and lifes.
Bells exist to give signals, important accoustic signals which would pierce through even loud traffic noise or stormy wind. No one rings a bell "just like that".

As a little boy, I remember climbing up the small church tower in our village, along with two friends, all of us maybe 10 or 11 years old. Once on top, we started to ring the three bells in place. That was lots of fun. But you can surely imagine that we put ourselves in a lot of trouble by doing so.
Then, there are ship bells, door bells, teller bells, school bells, and so on. All meaningful.

In many east asian cultures, there are gongs and bells to be found in buddhist temples. There are the bells to call the monks to eat, once a day. If you as a tourist and non buddhist "just feel like it", you will most certainly end up in a lot more trouble than us boys got ourselves into.
Then, there are huge gongs that the general public may hit once, after prayer. Wat Phra Kheo in Bangkok is such a place. The gong there is about 2 meters in diameter and due to the amount of visitors, the gong would be activated a lot during the day.
Know, that Wat Phra Kheo, also known as "Grand Palace" is home to the Emerald Buddha, the most important Buddha statue in Thai Theravada Buddhism.
I've seen it once, that brainless idiots started to hit this gong, having fun doing so. The Thai security personell took propercare of them within less than 30 seconds...

The discovery of "sounding bubbles" in steel drums, which subsequently led to the development of the steel pan was an "accident". But soon after, it became clear to the trinidadians that they hold a more powerful tool in their hands than they ever had before. It had and has the ability to bring people together, to achieve a strong sound that goes through
your entire body. Many steelband people will confirm that pan has highly addictive qualities.
Example: You can observe that many players of big trinidadian steelbands "go nuts" during the performance of theirPanorama music. Just check youtube.

It looks like they would be on speed, or cocaine, in a kind of agressive trance. They are so busy with their rhythm, sound, and with themselves doing that in a collective of hundred or more players, that they start to be totally "out of their mind". A person can not take too much of that, Carnival is rightfully only once a year.

Another example: I've seen countless steelbands playing "for themselves" instead of playing for an audience. That then happens in such an egoistic strong way, that the players don't notice that the "sound cloud' they produce is far from being agreable to listen to. They rape their pans. "Authistic music", I call it.

I've seen a lot of people go down because of steel pan. The instrument broke them in the end, because they used it in a wrong way, they constantly abused it. Now, steel doesn't take take, it will lash back at you. That abuse, by the way, can also be observed with people playing the Hang like it would be a drum, something you hit. They sit there, beat the sh.. out of the Hang and don't even realize that they mistreat their instrument. Anyway, by doing so,
they mistreat themselves.

The Hang is played by hands. This is a distinct difference to pans, bells and gongs, all of which are played or put into vibration with sticks or mallets.
No need to explain that you are "closer" to something when you touch it with your hands. Therefore, the quality of material becomes crutial.

See, to play african drums by hand, that feels ok, it's animal's skin after all. But do you know ANY instrument made out of mild steel which is played by hand? I don't!
Mind you, the material of the Hang has changed so much during it's nitriding process that technically speaking, it can not be considered mild steel anymore.
That's thumbs down for the Caisa and the Spacedrum, cause these instruments are just mild steel.
I know for a fact, that it is energetically speaking absolutely dangerous to play a thing like that with bear hands.

If you understand the historical and social meaning of bells, you will probably agree with me that calling a Hang shaped instrument a "bell" is thumbs down too.

As for the Halo: Pantheonsteel mentioned more than once the term handpan. If the Halo is a pan played by hand, then I frankly doubt these gentlemens historical knowledge and social abilities. I also doubt, that many pantuners are aware of the energetical effect that steel sheet instruments have on our bodies and souls.

At last: To call these objects "drums" means to draw a direct connection to drums, drumming, beating. It is not a good direction to guide people to, when it comes to steel.

What causes me to loose respect for pantuners making Hang shaped instruments?
Maybe, because it is relatively easy done, and then there's the money to get, isn't it? Riding on the Hang hype, that sort of stuff. Pantheonsteel wrote on their steelpan website that they are not producing steel pans right now. And then:"Please be patient as we are about to redevelop the steel pan."
What a statement!
I just noticed a few days ago, that the steel pan content has been removed from Pantheonsteel's website. So much for that.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way excluding myself from all this. After all, I went for it as well and made a hardly propperly tuned "Handpan". I am not proud of it whatsoever, nor did or do I ever have the intention of selling something like this. I even deleted the two youtube clips. However, I did put them back online after a while, thinking that they would be useful as a kind of an example of what not to do.

Of course, there are people that don't get it and think that these youtube clips are "the best" I can "come up with". I let these people think what they want. I'm ok with that, for the most it draws a smile on my face when confronted with that kind of critisism.

I am very happy that I did not fall into the "trap" of making a Hang copy.
Instead, I went back to my own work and have since asked myself thousands of questions concerning the sound properties of my own instruments. It has made me realize a lot and in many ways I have become a better pan tuner than before. Looking at it that way, the Hang has helped me tremendously.

What is right, and what is wrong?

Indeed a philosophical question, but not only. I'll dive into this one lateron.

Thanks for reading.

Werner

Frank
I agree. These things are indeed different to the Hang. I've yet to experience a Bells or Halo in person so to what extent they are different and to what extent they are similar I cannot really say. I am also a novice to the Hang, so perhaps my assessment will not be the most thorough, but I plan to get one of both of these instruments eventually, so when I have personal experience I will write about it.

I think it is unlikely we will see mass produced hang-shape instruments soon because there is still a large amount of individual hand-making that must go into them.

As for shitting on the culture of these instruments - I dont think I know of anybody who may have done this intentionally. But you are right, it is endless to talk about this. I would like to know more about your definitons here but maybe in a private conversation? I think people will get heated if this is discussed in public.

Werner
Thankyou! It has been very interesting learning a little more about this perspective, and this particular historical context of bells and gongs.
I find it interesting where cultures intermingle.
So there are people who will go to Wat Phra Kheo (I have been here myself) and be disrespectful. To them they are doing nothing, to someone who is seeing with the eyes of the Thai Buddhist culture it is like with every move they are making glass is shattering. I find this interesting.

I think something similar happens between the Hang culture and the other cultures which come into contact with it, not recognising that they are intermingling with a very different way of percieving the world. To them they see a musical instrument, a commodity. Maybe a drum, maybe a steel pan type of thing. To people who are enmeshed in the Hang culture it is a sound sculpture, a gift. Percussive but not a drum, wrought of steel but not a pan. Where two such different views exist for the same object perhaps there is bound to be conflict.

You say "I've seen a lot of people go down because of steel pan. The instrument broke them in the end"
I am very interested to learn more about this phenomenon. Maybe you can teach me?

I remember seeing your home made hang-shape some time ago. I was excited to find it at the time, and to see some enterprising person being creative, making something in praise of the Hang. It never entered my mind you would sell it. I enjoyed seeing it and had hoped you would make progress

Maybe these new hang-shaped instruments, hand pans, idiophonic inverse tuned steel shells, or whatever one might call them, will each develop their own culture. Definitely there will be more of them in the worlds future, and the rarity of the Hang-shaped device will be lost. Hopefully this will be replaced by alot of beautiful music being made. Definitely it will become harder to be heard as a musician on a hang-shaped device. Those who use their hang-shapes as sound sculptures, as meditative tools, will continue to do so and surely will be undisturbed in real terms.

I still think I have alot to understand about the power so many attribute to the naming of these objects, but this has helped. Thankyou.

What is right and what is wrong

I've been thinking for quite a while how I should put my thoughts into writing, keeping it short and understandable. Just when I began to believe that this is very difficult, I realized that - on the contrary - it is in fact very simple:

Right or wrong, good or bad.
Most of us will agree that it is wrong and bad to kill or thief.
Most of us will agree that it is right and good to help old people cross the road, the scout's oath of one good deed a day.
Concerning the Hang and the several copies popping up on the market, I would say this:

What is the thing to do when having a genuine interest in making a Hang? Go and visit PANArt personally, talk with the Hangmakers, get informed, learn. That would be the first and right thing to do!
I know for a fact that Luis, Kyle, Bill, Phillipe (and a few others) did not visit PANArt. Why did they not? I do blame them for not doing so, for not having that sense of decency.
Besides that, by visiting PANArt, they perhaps would have been able to understand better, to avoid mistakes in the first place, to achieve better results quicker. Instead of wondering about, announcing scales which turn out to be problematic, and so on.

Then, an instrument makers background or roots, his intentions and motivations play a very important part in the matter of right or wrong.
I've explained my opinion on this on an earlier date: It is not enough to just come up with something "nice" and sell it to make the quick buck. Make no mistake, this is what it is all about with these guys.
Planetary sounds? Healing scales? Endless choices of scales? Pretty accessories? Nice homepage? Flush that...
It is not right to deceive people, making them believe something which is not the truth.

Further, the publicly accessible information of what a instrument maker does and why is very important. I can't find any of that with the forementioned guys. Just sales talk.

As a matter of fact, I do find the communication and information policy of PANArt fabulous, unlike many votes saying that we hardly get any "news" from Berne. To me, there is a lot more information available from and about PANArt than from any of the copyists. The info from PANArt is always rock solid and easy to comprehend. Their thoughts and intentions are very clear, professionally translated and presented in five languages to ensure a minimum of misunderstanding.

After all, it is very easy to see that these copyists just ride on the Hang and PANArt, just aiming at sales, not thinking about the impact their instruments have on psyche and health. Again, that is not a good thing to do.

If you have followed the evolution of Bellart, Pantheon, Caisadrum, Spacedrum, you will realize that their stories are full of friction, discrepancies.
Again, that is not the right thing to do.

PANArt has put it very well, what the Hang is and what not. Nevertheless, I'll put it in my own words. The Hang is not an instrument for people who "can't wait to see and hear it", an expression I keep hearing and reading all over the places...

PANArt has in my opinion successfully achieved to break out of the usual economic mechanisms of "growth", "more", "faster".
It seems to me, that this very Hangforum also has been able to break out of the common "chitchat", which seems to be so dominant in many internet forums nowadays. Congratulations!

Werner

Werner,

You really should not state your opinions as fact.

You cannot speak with knowledge, let alone authority, about anyone's intentions -- only your perceptions.

It's fine for you to voice your opinion -- of course.

But please don't wrap it up as if it were truth.

I can only speak about Kyle because I am getting to know him rather well.

Your allegations are false and uncalled for. Not only as a matter of goals but as to motivation.

It is unfounded hostility -- call it what you will -- such this that has silenced this forum -- at least, the English portion of it.

If you prefer silence to chit chat, enjoy.

Me, I prefer the respectful exchange of ideas and beliefs -- infused with the assumption that everyone in this community, maker, player, and observer -- has the best possible motivations. Even if they are not all shared by all people.

It saddens me to pop in here to learn more about the Free Integral Hang and find such things lying like emotional landmines.

Especially in your case because -- as with others I have passionately debated with here, like Frank and Ix -- I know you to be full of knowledge and love for the Hang and its relatives.

I hope I can someday share in some of that knowledge and love, without the pollution of this hostility. :/

May your making be ever more fine and your playing ever more refined, in the meantime.

aaron

Hallo,

it is very late at night in germany. I just read your thoughts @Werner and I agree with a lot of, what you wrote.
I read your posting too @Aaron. Now I go sleeping and tommorow I will post my opinions about this topic.

Good night.

Frank

Good morning,

let me start with a general problem.



@Aaron. I read this criticism a lot of times in the foretime from different people. Yes. If any person wrote or say something a lot of is opinion. What else?
But not all is only opinion. In some cases we can proof facts.
To say: "this is only opinion" looks for me in certain cases as a try to discredit a person who speak about something and it could be a try to draw off the attention from the subject-matter.
In the most cases this was the argument from people who dont want a closer inspection on the things around Halo, Bell, Caisa and so on.
If I read something on the internet I ask me first: "who is the writer?" "What are the interests of this person?"
I think that Werner know a lot of about Steelpans (as a Tuner and Steelpanmaker) and he know also a lot of about PANArt and the Hang.
If he say something about this subjects I have in mind, that he has professional competence in his field.

So, what i post now is only my opinion!



I totally agree. And it is a fact and not only opinion that all the Hang copyist dont have done that.
Why not? Is it easyer to do all the work from the beginning?
Or do they fear, that they dont make a lot of money?



But it works unfortunately. It seems that a few people are happy with this instruments. Not all. I read on the internet, that a Halo player from germany feel like a "beta tester" after he received his Halo.
I think all the people who search for an nice percussion instrument could be happy with the Hang copys.
I just found a video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRyPlMUijPE
Some Halos have "knocks" on the backside. I read comments about these "knocks" in the internet. People say thes "knocks" are awesome and nice to play rhythm on it. Hey? Halo?
I can play with a better sound on my 3 Euro Ikea Salad bowl.
Ok. These "knocks" are only a little part from the Halo. But the comments show me, that people are happy about these "knocks". This makes me wonder. But this is only my opinion.

In the last letter from PANArt we could read:



Here we find an interesting information what is going on. A lot of people think that the Hang is a kind of drum. An percussion instrument.
A lot of people never heard the Hang live. They know the Hang maybe from Youtube. This people dont know about the real sound potential of the Hang. They never had the experience how deep the sound from the Hang could go into the soul.
They see the shape.
Similar shape= Similar instrument.

It is easy to sell Hang copys to this people.

But there are also people who are realy need and love the well balanced sound from the Hang. I think if they buy any Hangcopy they will be disappointed. Maybe they dont want to belief that they made a mistake in the first moment.
It is not easy to pay more than 1000 Euro and after that concede that one is wrong.
What will tell the Hang copyists these people? I am very curious.



Yes, it is a little bit more "quiet" at the moment in the english forum part.
We have no members or admins who post after any new post .
We cant ask every day what number on the Panart list popped up, because there is No list.
A few people prefer to talk on places where nobody has a closer view on that what they call "Handpan". It is party, joy , fun...

Let me end with another quote from the last PANArt letter. You find the complete letter on http://www.hangblog.org/2009/11/21/lett ... mber-2009/



With this in mind I am happy that we are on a good way with this Forum.

Only my opinion!

Greetings
Frank

I have been away from this forum for a while. I came back to see what kind of information and discussion I would find regarding the news of the Free Integral Hang.

And I was reminded of why I have been staying away. In my opinion, it seems that there are many assumptions and judgments made. They receive little critical analysis because they are the dominant view.

I suppose this is the type of community that is wanted here, at least by many. I am looking for a different kind of community.

I wish everyone the best in their musical (and other) pursuits!

My facts which you Aaron call opinions are based on information I've been collecting up to the present day. My resources are mainly the internet and e-mail communications, but also personal contacts with, and "second hand" info of people who know the copyists directly.
I am not being hostile or unfriendly, nor is there frustration or anger in what I am saying (check my previous posts in this very same thread).

You're saying that I love the Hang. That is an allegation. A welcome one though, because it had me thinking. I would say that I don't love the steel pan, as funny as this may sound. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if like it, really. But what I do love and appreciate tremendously is, what the pan is able to provoke and effectuate with people. As for the Hang, I confess that this is an object which does not really touch me.
Yes, I find the shape (form) beautiful, I admire the craftmanship and tone. But you could give me a Hang and I would not have a clue what to do with it really... But, same like with the pan, I do love and appreciate what the Hang is able to provoke and effectuate with people.

I'll explain what I mean when I say that the copyists ways are loaded with antagonisms:
They're all using PANArt and Hang as their reference when promoting their product.
Remember, Bellart was Hangart.
Remember, Caisabill promoted his instrument as "alternative to the Hang".
Remember, Pantheonsteel refered to the Hang when launching their product, claiming it to be the "lowest pitched handpan available" (sales talk).
All of that has vanished...
Bellart has announced to deliver x-amount of instruments since the beginning of 2009. Not much has happened ever since. Their waiting list increases...
Pantheonsteel has announced scales which turned out to be problematic. As a matter of fact, Pantheonsteel promoted a product, and when attaching the top to the bottom, they noticed that it doesn't work out. Professionalism? Talk about it...

One more thing: Waiting lists are one thing. But introducing numbers is simply cruel! 3000 on one list and maybe 300 out of the door? Good luck!
400 on another list and maybe 40 out of the door? Go on then...

You may not remember the "hype", when Pantheonsteel and Bellart announced that they would be launching their instruments. I do.
I read it countless times: "There's a Hang alternative, there's choice, "they are now being mass produced in the US ("mass produced", there we go...), "There's a chance getting one without having to write a letter", and so on.

What is the situation today? Same like yesterday and tomorrow. Or even worse...

Aaron, I do appreciate all and any kind of answers to my posts, I really do. But allow me to ask you for something: If there's anything you don't like about the stuff I write, adress it directly, without shame. Name it, don't waste time being polite. Do it straight ahead. Thanks!

Thanks everyone for reading.

Werner

Werner,

I very much appreciate your calm and reasonable reply!

Some of my opinions... ...

It is that it is only natural that people making instrument inspired by the Hang would refer to it -- there has never been any question whether the Bell, or Halo, or indeed Caisa, were inspired by the Hang.

One might say, everyone should start from scratch, like Felix, etc...

...but then as we have discussed before, and you have observed with precision, Felix did not start from scratch either!

Regarding whether Luis, or Kyle, or Bill, should visit PANArt -- the only thing I can add to the story is one fact and one opinion.

The fact is that I do know Kyle has talked before to Felix -- whatever the rest of us may think, I understand that that dialog has gone deep. Only the two of them should perhaps speak of it.

The opinion is simply that if one wanted to try to learn Hang-craft -- to make a Hang -- then yes, there is only one place to go...

...but if one wishes to make instruments inspired by, drawing on the innovation of the Hang, but not a Hang itself -- then perhaps it is better to study what is public, and take one's owns path. You lose something -- the expertise of the creator -- but also you gain something, which is your own understanding.

I know that most people here (on hangforum.com) consider the loss infinitely greater than the gain.

In this matter as you also know my opinion is different -- I love my Halo, just as my love my Hang. I have written elsewhere about much my relationship to my Halo is deepening my relationship to, and understanding of, my Hang -- and deepening my respect for the path PANArt is on. (In this matter I can have my cake and eat it too -- I can both embrace what the Hang becomes, AND love the alternatives...)

Regarding hype -- yes, the pressure created by the unavailability of the Hang precisely as it gets better and better at being itself, creates a context in which hope and desire seize any possibility for their own use.

But this is simply the situation of the world, not one created by or encouraged (in my opinion) any of the people making 'alternatives' of any kind.

As for mistakes Kyle (and probably Luis, and maybe Bill, I don't know) make along the way -- yes, these are mistakes, and people learn from them. It was a mistake to promise one tuning and then discover problems with it. No doubt.

But in the case of Kyle this at least turned out for the best -- instead of one familiar old scale, there are many to choose from.

I understand that this also is dismissed by some here -- as I have said before, my own opinion is different. I would certainly love to someday play an FIH which is perfected purely on its own terms --

...but I also currently love having two very different objects to interact with, my second generation gudu-Hang (IH tuning), and my Halo in a harmonic minor-based tuning. Each takes me into a different place, musically, meditatively, mentally; how could it be otherwise?

Also, I have to say, it is a great pleasure to play them together, as one 'instrument' -- they harmonize very nicely. I posted links over at 'the other forum' in the Halo section if anyone would care to hear. Apologies for the poor playing, bad technique, and compromises that come with trying to engage two objects at once...

Anyway.

As I sad above, in the absence of personal relationship, one must make conclusions based on perceived facts.

The difference in our perceptions, as to motivation and character, of Kyle (etc.) at least seems to confirm one things -- that the facts are ambiguous.

Perhaps that is something we can agree on -- that there is at least enough ambiguity as to make both our opinions, opinions.

Best,
aaron

Hallo,

@Aaron. You speak about "inspired" instruments. What is inspiration?

If I see an object , for example an piece of art, and I try to copy this object...
Is this inspiration?

If I do my work on this copy and I see, that I cant make a exact copy because I dont have the same material, tools, knowledge, mastery...
At the end I have something similar in shape, but with totally different qualitys. Is this inspiration?

For me inspiration (lat: inspiratio) is something different. It is the power who brings new! ideas.
Maybe anybody has an experience or "light bulb moment". Maybe he see a form, picture or listen to a piece of music. And so on.
This experience brings new ideas to this person. He start to be creative and at the end he made something new.
A new picture, a new piece of music, a new sculpture...
This is for me inspiration! Anything else is the try to make a copy.
If I try to copy something exact it is not inspiration. It is simple theft.

Greetings
Frank

Ah, Frank, I had forgotten the joys of arguing with you!

I've said it before, but again for the record...

Kyle is very clear that the Halo is NOT a Hang, that it was only inspired by the Hang.

He is not trying to make Hanghang. He is trying to, and succeeding at, making something else, that shares some properties with the Hang, but not all; that uses some different techniques; and has a different character and timbre. That is perfectly clear in every gesture he makes and in the attitude he has shown in respect -- and WITH respect -- to PANArt from the beginning.

But philosophically -- I've said it before, but no one has yet answered this basic question. Some person or people invent a new thing. Other people like what has been done, and see more possibilities, so they embrace, extend and evolve the thing to their own use -- sometimes the changes are big, sometimes small, and sometimes they are mistakes or simplifications that save time and energy. That's the nature of our culture and civilization. That's how every object you use and enjoy evolved.

Seriously, what else do you expect to happen -- that PANArt be the only ones "allowed" to make objects that look like the Hang and apply its principals to one degree or another?

You can't ask the world to not embrace and extend the Hang. The most you can ask is that there be clarity and integrity with respect to the original, and respect of any patents or trademarks. So be it.

What is a Honda or a Tata? Is it theft from Henry Ford!?

What is a guitar? Is it theft from the person who invented the lute!?

What is a cello? Is it theft from the person who invented the viola de gamba!?

What was the IBM PC? Theft from Apple?

Etc.


But enough about that.... we will never agree, I know. I just ask (again) that you refrain from slander.


Let me turn this question ninety degrees, to a more serious one.


I think the following we can all agree:

PANArt cannot make enough Hanghang for those who would like to play something like a Hang.

PANArt will no longer give Hanghang to those who would like to play them in ways other than the currently evolved vision.


What would you have those who are "outside" the circle do? What should they play?

Should they be content with nothing?


What would you have someone do, who can make not a Hang, but something similar -- perhaps not to a FIH, or an IH, but to a first generation Hang. Or a second generation Hang.

Should no one make anything, that is not the current PANArt state of the art?

Should no one make anything, now, but just intoned Hanghang incapable of playing with others even of their own kind?


For me there are not philosophical questions.

I think we can also agree, I myself will never be invited to get a new Hang.

I have spent the last decade of my life devoted to listening, and to making art based on preserving the fragile, the delicate, and the lovely -- things I think I have in common with Felix... and this I wrote him a couple years ago.

I have spent the last two years of my life more focused on learning and listening to the Hang (and now the Halo) than anything else in my life -- except my daughter, who I play for.

But I have not gotten "the letter" this month, and do you really doubt that I never will?

I have said too many things Felix doesn't like, in his current mood, in public.

Fortunately for me, I like the Halo also, so I will survive. And maybe someday I will get to play someone else's FIH.


Others may not. Where are they supposed to go?

I am not asking you to answer -- there are no answers.

I am remind you that it is one thing to dislike the Halo, when you have a Hang, and may look forward to another.

It is another when you are outside the circle of fire.

Out here in the night time, the Halo is a light and a warmth in the darkness.

And it too was made as a gift against the night.

Yes, if someone really want to play something like a Hang, but cannot get a Hang, he/she will be content with nothing.

If I know, that Caisa, Spacedrum, Halo and Bell are not like a Hang, I would lie if I would say, that he will get more than nothing.

I think that's the main dissent here.

I think the new information from PANArt makes it clear that who want a Hang should ask PANArt for a Hang instead of being "on the list" of other instrument makers. On the other hand: Those who don't want a Hang (in the meaning of what PANArt outlined in the new letter from the Hangbauhaus) shouldn't waste their time to try to get a Hang but look for the instrument that is convenient to him/her.

I think it is important to understand the differences of concepts and sounds and then make ones own decision.

Ix

I think you are agreeing Ix that it is better to play a Caisa, or a Halo, or a Bell, or... than nothing at all?

I don't want to argue over specific words, but when I play my Halo it is most definitely "like" my Hang -- in many ways.

No, it is not a Hang, there is never any question! It is not like a Hang of any generation.

But that is not to say that it is "worse" than a Hang. It is not as perfected as an Integral Hang, certainly; but it is far more expressive, subtle, and engaging than the mint condition first generation Hang I played recently...

Fwiw I hope that when I am next in Europe I will be able to visit you and Frank and Werner, and bring a Halo with me. I think it would be a great step forward for us to have a 'midnight concert' as you describe, simply listening -- to the Hang of course, and also I hope to the Halo.

But anyway. My only other comment is that I think that it is important to say that there is no reason one cannot both understand, and seek, a Hang, for what it is, and out of belief and enthusiasm for the vision PANArt has espoused in this November letter --

AND to enjoy other objects, other sounds, other meditation, and other music, with a Caisa or Halo, at the same.

Or, do you think that the subtext of the new letter is that PANArt believes that it is impossible that one can embrace and understand their vision, AND play a Halo? I.e. do you think Felix is saying that anyone who wants to play a Halo, is -- a priori -- someone who cannot approach a Hang on its own terms?

I sincerely hope not!

I do not believe that -- I play my Hang and my Halo very differently. Not only different technique, but different mental state, different emotional state -- they are different experiences that happen to use my hands and body in related ways.

I would be sad indeed to think that Felix thinks that!

aaron