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Victor,

I have an idea. I dont know, if it will work. I only speak for me personally. I dont know, what Panart will think about my idea.
Should I ask Felix if we could meet together in Bern in his workshop? And than you could explain what you are doing and what Panart did
wrong. From expert to expert. In a friendly and peacefull and respectfull way?

Again. It could be, that they are not interested in such a meeting. But who knows? I can ask. I think it could be interesting.
I am only a Hangplayer. Not a tuner. But I played a lot of Hanghang and I know how it feels. I also played some copys.

Frank

Dear Frank,

i can tell if the Hang was damaged or not, more so it was in tune! and the last who toched it was Panart.

i am not on a mission, but i would like those people to stand behind what they say and what they do.

claiming other makers to make bad job, and at the same time filing to do itt right?

i dont think that will work... to much said from my side. i trust they probably hate me now....

they dont answer my letters with complains about their work, wich means they are not interested in conversation.

but in case it will, we have need to invite Swarup too, as his Ding still need a lot of work.

it is interesting that i see this a lot in 2nd gen Hang.

usually prior Hanghang and IH, are made very firm and can hold the load.

Victor,

i dont think they hate you. It seems, they have other things to do as fruitless discussion via e-mail.
I see a chance for a meeting in the future and maybe I could help a little bit to make it happen.

I own also an second generation Hang and just gave back another second generation Hang to Panart.
They dont had any problems since years. The Ding is absolute fine.
Michael owns also a second generation Hang and since it was made, no hammer was needfull to fix anything.
It is absolute in balance.
I think a Hang from Swarup is not a good example for the stability of Hang tuning. I was busking with a Hang sometimes, a few years ago.
I know, that the Hang is not made for noisy streets. Sooner or later you will detune your Hang, because you must play loud.
Swarup is also very generous with his Hanghang. I met him a few years ago at the Hangout and we travelled together back to London.
A friendly guy. In this time one of his Hanghang was loaned to friends. Who knows how it was treated? Any Hangplayer could tell you
their experience with friends who want to try out the Hang. I am very careful with this. If people tell me: "Hey, can I test it. I am an
experienced djembe player..." A red alarm light in my head is going on. Not because I dont like djembe. But I know, that they could hit very
hard. And lot of people think about the Hang as a drum.
I met a lot of people in the last years and lot of would try out my Hang. The most people think they must hit the Hang harder, if they
are new and dont know how to awake the sound.

So, better forget the Swarup Hang as an example.

Frank

Frank,

i am not saying that all 2nd gen Hang are not well made.

i am trying to say that PANart, like all other people make mistakes, or maybe sometimes lazy to do it the best possible way, you see?

not all Hanghang are as good...

there is nothing wrong with it!

there is wrong in making claims and judging other people, dont you get it?

Frank,

do you read what i am saying carefully?

Davide Swarup hang was not detuned, damaged or whatever!

it was sounding just fine and you can hear that in Davide`s album and youtube videos.

why i have mentioned it is because you were talking about my tuning methods.

that is what i answered to you in return, the thing is that now i make tonefileds with a much greater tension(wich leads to a stronger sound, greater dymamics, stability, resposivness) than most 2nd gen Hanghang have.

you claim, i react. and i promise you that it will be like that since now.

i will not leave any of your or Michael claims without critical respond, enough of that already.

be carefull what you write, as i have more insights that are tempting to surface.

nothing personal, the truth is what i am after.

Hi Victor,

yes, this is only what I say. Thank you that you confirm that.

I am only a Hangplayer. I think I have a lot of experience with the Hang. But I am not a Hangmaker or a Handpanmaker. So, I am the wrong person for discussions about that.
By the way. I dont remember, that I have ever "rated" your work in any way. I have my own opinion, but I dont remember to post something about your work on this or another forum. It could be, that I am only not remember. So, sorry if I am wrong.
To say something is "different" is not a estimation.

If you have a problem with Panart it would be the best, you speak with them.

Regards

Frank

Frank,

you did rate it, by saying that only correct ratios are needed.

also somehow, you mad the impression that it was clear for you from the only 2 videos that surfaced on youtube of me working with metal.

in one you can see me last steps in fine tuning,

and in the other you can see me "pre" tuning overtones and adjusting my softaware setup around the ding(shoulder "bell" overtones)

be carefull what do you write, please.

Hi Victor,
I have played more than 100 Free Integral Hang and seen about 150. I never saw a Hang that looks like the description you gave of that single Hang.

Can you send pictures of the Hang to me? If your description is correct my first assumption is that someone took a hammer and tried to tune it.

The record doesn't help. The Hang wasn't played in a way that allows any conclusion about its sound quality. I can hear zero Gu sound. This is only possible when the Hang was placed on a table or on the floor when recorded. You cannot say anything about the quality of a Free Hang if you place it this way. The Gu must be open and you must integrate Gu and Ding by adjusting the Gu an octave below the Ding. Without this you cannot estimate a Free Hang's sound quality.

My main question is: If this is really a Free Hang in original state and if it is really so bad as you described it, why didn't the owner contact PANArt for an exchange?

Michael

No Michael,

it is for sure it was never touched,

these things i describe are not visible from first sight, only if you examine it very close and you have a idea what you looking for.

is it possible to make it shallower after it has been glued? i you know its not.

also i could see it was made like that, something you can recognize when you work with steel a lot every day. maybe Hangmakers had a bad day? too much legal hearings that week?

also the person who brought it was so touchy, trying to explain me what Felix told him about tuning of this one. i dont belive he would ever allow someone to touch it or done it himself.

actually he brought it back to Panart one day and they couldnt fix what the guy didnt like about it. though they offered him to return it, but not to exchange...

also the glue bond: i have told you that thickness of the glue was varrying from 0.1-to around 2mm all around.

have you listened to the recording of it i have posted earlier?

Michael, Michael,

was is it about GU? how can it help if the tone fields are not in tune with each other and within themselfs? you are making me smile.

placed on a table? my dear friend, i played that thing and it sound like that, with GU or without!

sorry for this direct comparison, but you act like zombie!

you and me we are in different weight category...

you only know what you have been told, you see the difference?

can you just for a moment believe that Hangmakers made a really bad FIH? atleast one?

anyway,

i would like to stop this conversation,

my initial reaction was to your latest answer on hangblog,

please be carefull how you word can be interpreted!

to put FIH as an advancement above other instruments incl earlier Hanghang is not a right description.

it is a step away to the side, and in no way a step in further development.


maybe i should put it in your language:

it didnt touch me, nor sonically nor visually. and it didnt touch anyone i know.

but there are some FIH that touches me even from youtube videos.

and what a strange coincedence: they touch everyone i know...

will that be better said?

There is no evidence, Victor. Only statements by you. Send pictures to me or let me contact the owner. You obviously have not understood the Free Integral Hang. Otherwise you would not ask me what it is about the GU. If you don't know the answer by yourself you have obviously never heard a Free hang played well. It is the Hang and the player that produces the sound. You cannot isolate the tone fields. They sound different in any moment and how they sound depends on how you excite them, how you hold the Hang, where you are in the room, which other sounds are oscillating at the same moment...

You mentioned hammer marks in the tone fields an supposed that it is bad work. Did you ever consider that hammer marks in the tone fields are the necessary results of the tuning process? Compare a Hang with a Halo: The Hang tone fields look rough compared with the Halo tone fields. Is this a sign for worse tuning quality? No it is a sign for a better tuning quality. The tone fields of the Hang are made in a complex process. During this process they are hammered up and down many times. It is like a massage. It is not possible to do this without leaving hammer marks.

You mentioned the thickness of the gluing. You know that the Hang is glued under tension. Therefor no Hang has a gluing with constant thickness.

You mentioned that the partials are not tuned exactly to 1:2:3. So what? This is intended. I told you about detuning as main parameter for sound shaping. Anthony Achong has written an article about this (look at the Wikipedia link). The master tuners of Trinidad already used the detuning of the upper partials to design their personal shape of sound. This is what distinguishes a Bertie Marshalll tenor pan from a Randolph Thomas tenor pan for example. PANArt followed this idea consequently: If detuning is a main parameter for sound shaping, so why not free oneself from the strobo tuner to get more freedom and better results when shaping the sound?

You says that you and others didn't like that special Hang. How long have you played this Hang? 10 Minutes? 2 hours? A day? A week? A Month? Half a year? I told here in earlier posts that I needed 2 months to learn how to hold and to touch my Free Integral Hang. And another thought: The Free Integral Hang needs a very light touch. Most Hang players I ever heard have a touch that is too hard for a Free Integral Hang.

Michael, if my word is not enough for you then there is no sense in further conversation.

not hammer marks, but imperfect boundaries of the notes - i cant explain... like if you have fence and then you have a gap in the fence...

that Hang was really bad, trust me. a lot of interaction with cavity resoances, harmonics inpronounced because of that, dont tell me its an advancement please.. call it something else.


you say detuning, now please explain me why some FIH are tuned exactly in pitch?

let's stay with this, away from all technical data:

it didnt touch me or anyone else i know.

the guy picked it up from all the Hanghang because he had no idea how to play it, thats it.

ok?

Not ok, Victor,
your central statement was: The PANArt tuners do bad work.

This is something else than saying: I don't like that single Hang. Or: This single Hang doesn't touch me.

You posted a record which is not qualified for estimating the tuning and sound quality of this Hang. So this doesn't help.

You told us that the owner told you that the Hang was in original state. But you cannot be sure what happened to this Hang since it left the Hangbauhaus until you checked it out (you know, a single drop down can detune a Hang).

You gave us some information by word how the Hang looks. I wrote some principle thoughts how Free Integral Hanghang look to discuss whether your description is possibly just the desciption how a normal Free Integral Hang looks. If you say no, it looks quite different than any other Free Integral Hang, then we have to ask: Why? In principle there are two possibilities: It is the original state or it was changed by someone else than PANArt. If it was changed, we can forget the whole discussion because we cannot estimate the quality of the work of the PANArt tuners using this Hang. If it is in the original state than another question arises: obviously in this case this Hang is a rare exception. But then, why did PANArt sell this, when it is bad quality? They don't need the money from this one Hang and PANArt has a reputation to lose. So this doesn't make any sense.

You see: Questions, questions, questions.

But this is clear: You have no good reasons for your statement that PANArt tuners do bad work, because this statement is based only on a single case. And many questions are unanswered about this case.

Therefor you should stop stating this until you are able to produce evidence.

And just another question:



If this is true, why didn't he ask for help with his Hang?

You can contact PANArt when you have a problem with your Free Integral Hang.

And in the Hang Forum we have the Hang Players Room, a confidential place to discuss this sort of questions. And he could be sure that no one from outside (not even PANArt) had access to this discussion.

Why did he contact you, someone without any deeper experience with the Free Integral Hang?

And by the way, did you tune his Hang?

i have told you Michael,

the guy went back to Panart, and Felix tried to make it better but he didnt succeed.

i know another story where another guy had to talk 3 hours with Felix to convience him to tune his FIH "better"

but let's leave that for a moment...

here is my thoughts:

i am very interested in this discussion, but i dont see any point if one of the side(you) dosent even want to presume that he can be wrong. where will this lead? nowhere...

as for evidence, i have seen i with my own eyes:

what i can call "rush" work, not smooth and i am not talking about "tuning" dents.

if you like i can get a hold of that exact hang if the person still has it because he wanted to get rid of it... or i can ask him to picture it.

Hi Victor,
it is not the question whether I presume that I can be wrong. Everybody can be wrong. This is a scientific principle.

My point is, that I am not able to discuss this as long the empiric facts are not on the table.

So your suggestion is a good one. Pictures will help to decide whether it is really "rush work" as you suppose. To be able to say something about the quality of the Hang I must play it myself.

Sure Michael,

i understand that you need facts. therefore i want you to know that i am not here to bad mouth Panart for nothing. i have things to say but simply with a desire to change things are and not to bring anyone down for the fun of it.

i contacted the guy and he is on vacation having only one of my instruments with him and his FIH at home.

we will try to make some photos as he will get back home.

also, i would like you to know my expert opnion that these issues play small role in the overal sound quality, but they do...

i was more concerned with the way it was tuned(and in general i accept Free tuning as an art and respect the skill need for that) out of harmony with cavity resonance and out of balance with itself( no chords, no overtone coupling no mathematic relation between freq-ies even no octaves matching to a madenning state)

what you can hear on the audio i have provided is how it sounded on my lap, and nobody touched it with hammer except Felix Rohner himself.

Here Michael,

all i can find now - but you can see on the edge of the tonefields kind of bumps/spikes/dents

it is not image artifacts, is saw them with my own eyes and felt them with my own fingers on this exact hang.

http://postimage.org/image/v3i0b2jr5/