hangforum.com - The Archive

Maia love, I'm quite grounded. I thought I had finished on this forum but I carried on as other subjects had been introduced.

I do have travel insurance...but I'm unsure if one can make a claim when the choice to cancel is not due to illness or accident etc rather than an emotional catastrophe ..but I will check.
This whole experience has been on an esoteric level as Life is an esoteric journey.

Michael, I respond to the email you send to my private address. I'm disappointed that you have not responded or acknowledged mine.

As for you last comment regarding my thread on the Handpan forum, please address it to Handpan.org. I can't comment as I am not an administrator.

Private communication I will answer privately, not here. Excuse me that I am not fast enough.

My comment about the topic on handpan.org was meant to be addressed to the administration there. Sorry if it was not formulated clear enough.

i think somebody should start speaking thier "language". i suggest you to go on!

One last comment too.. (even though you mistakenly addressed it to me...must be Divine Providence)

One day, an old man was walking along the beach in the early morning and noticed the tide had washed thousands of starfish up on the shore. Up ahead in the distance he spotted a boy who appeared to be gathering up the starfish, and one by one tossing them back into the ocean.
He approached the boy and asked him why he spent so much energy doing what seemed to be a waste of time.
The boy replied, "If these starfish are left out here like this they will bake in the sun, and by this afternoon they will all be dead."
The old man gazed out as far as he could see and responded, "But, there must be hundreds of miles of beach and thousands of starfish. You can't possibly rescue all of them. You can’t make a difference."
The boy picked up another starfish and threw it back into the surf. Then, smiling at the old man, he said, “I made a difference to that one.”

You didn't get my point. Your story describes exact the contrary of what I wrote about:

In your story there were 100% fishes in danger but only very few were resqued.
In the case of the sticky topic there are only 0,3% problems but the admins acted as if 100% were in danger.

But I've just noticed the topic isn't sticky any longer. Obviously they thought it over.

Michael, as I understand TouchesMySoul's metaphor, the point is that only because something happens to a minority or a single person among a group of many, it doesn't mean it is insignificant. I tend to agree.

I understood her metaphor too. This was the reason why I wrote: You didn't get my point.
Let me say it in another way: Why is the single person TouchesMySoul so much more significant than the single person familienvater? Why is TouchesMySoul's topic a sticky but not this topic by familienvater: http://www.handpan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5181 ?

I would say that while both have similar importance as personal stories. If I had sent a Hang letter and was spending time at Handpan.org, TouchesMySoul's story would have more significance for me and I would be glad that it is stickied. I would want to know that I have to avoid posting certain things (curiosity about other instruments or posts in humorous, light-hearted ways, avoid words like pan and handpan, etc, the list is quite long), because someone might judge my posts and a (potential) invitation could be cancelled in consequence.

----german-----

Ich denke beide Geschichten sind gleich wichtig als persönliche Geschichten der Beteiligten.
Wenn ich aber einen Hang-Brief geschrieben hätte, wäre TouchesMySoul's Geschichte für mich von spezieller Wichtigkeit.
Ich würde wissen wollen dass ich bestimmte Dinge nicht im Forum schreiben darf um meine Chance auf ein FIH nicht zu gefährden. Zum Beispiel Interesse an anderen Instrumenten zu bekunden, humorvolle Posts (um nicht "unreif" zu wirken), das Benutzen von Wörtern wie "handpan", "Pan" und anderen.
Denn jemand kann eventuell meine Beiträge bewerten und eine Einladung kann verhindert oder sogar zurückgenommen werden.

David

Although this thread has calmed down, I would like to add my opinion.
Cancelling a written agreement that was given after a specific question for confirmation for flight booking seems pretty extreme.
In my opinion it is unprofessional for a company, and, more importantly, unfair on a personal level for someone who was highly invested in the trip financially and emotional.

Maia, your point that it is TouchesMySoul's fault not to make travel insurance seems to be a far stretch. (Besides that she is right and travel insurance usually only pays in case of illness or accident. Of course you can fake this kind of stuff, but that can't be good Karma, can it? )

The argument that everything that happens to someone is an important life lesson always sounds nice. Unfortunately everything that ever happened and will happen can be justified like this, and in consequence it erases the need for critical thinking, which I feel is a bit what is happening here. PanArt is a company run by two humans. Humans make mistakes - big deal. But if everything that someone does is accepted as right, because he or she is elevated to some kind of higher position, the situation becomes dodgy.

No matter how one feels about PanArts general policies, cancelling an agreement with someone that trusted your word and in consequence spent substantial money on a flight (and got emotionally invested, as we all do when it comes to these instruments) is not ok, it is unfair.
No reason to blame anyone else.

(as stated before this is obviously my personal opinion. If you don't agree, we can disagree and agree on that, no prob )

-----------------German----------


Obwohl das Thema ruhig geworden ist, würde ich gerne meine Meinung noch dazugeben.
Eine schriftlicht Vereinbarung, die nach spezifischer Nachfrage nach Bestätigung gegeben wurde, zurückzunehmen, nachdem die betroffene Person erhebliches Geld für Flüge ausgegeben hat, scheint ziemlich extrem.
Meiner Meinung nach ist es unprofessionell und unfair gegenüber einer Person die sowohl finanziell als auch emotional investiert war.

Das Argument, dass es TouchesMySoul's Fehler ist, keine Reiserücktrittsversicherung abzuschließen, finde ich sehr weit hergeholt.
(Ausserdem zahlen diese Versicherungen normalerweise nur bei Unfall oder Krankheit. Sie müsste also betrügen um ihr Geld erstattet zu kriegen, und das kann doch kein gutes Karma sein, oder? )
Das Argument dass alles was passiert, richtig ist und eine wichtige Lektion im Leben, klingt immer schön, aber es lässt sich leider alles was je passiert ist und passieren wird damit rechtfertigen, und somit wird jegliche Notwendigkeit kritischen Hinterfragens nullifiziert.
Für mein Gefühl passiert das hier ein bisschen.

PanArt ist eine Firma von zwei Menschen. Menschen machen Fehler - big deal - passiert jedem. Wenn aber alles was jemand tut generell als richtig akzeptiert und gerechtfertigt wird, weil dieser jemand auf eine höhere Position gehoben wird, wird die Situation schräg.

Egal wie man über PanArts generelle Herangehensweise denkt - ein gegebenes Wort, in diesem Fall auch eine schriftlicht Vereinbarung zurückzunehmen, die man jemandem gegeben hat, der auf diese Vereinbarung vertrauend Verpflichtungen und erhebliche Ausgaben eingegangen ist (abgesehen von der emotionalen Beteiligung, die wir alle haben wenn es um diese Instrumente geht), ist unfair und unprofessionell. Kein Grund, Schuld bei jemand anderem zu suchen.


David

Hi David,

I was merely pointing out that it is not Felix and Sabina's fault that TouchesMySoul doesn't have travel insurance - by default one might then assume the fault lies with TouchesMySoul, but this is not what I was implying - not my focus or intent.

Also, it is quite a separate point from whether it was appropriate or not for Felix and Sabina to cancel the invitation - I do not wish to 'pass judgement' on that without having the opportunity to sit with Felix and Sabina and hear what they might like to say about it (neither practical or appropriate, so I always prefer to give the benefit of doubt).

If somebody wants to elevate them to a higher position, that's their business - I personally don't do that with anyone. I consider myself equal whether I'm with the Queen of England or a homeless person (which also implies they I believe they are equal with each other )

Also, with travel insurance, and insurance through some Visa cards, my understanding is that it relates to any unforeseen circumstances outside your control - not just accident or illness...may not be the case but I thought it would be worth a phone call to check.

Hey Maia,

thanks for the clarification.

I would say that of course it'd be TouchesMySoul's fault not to make travel insurance, who else could have done this for her?
From what I understand she simply trusted that a word is a word and an agreement is an agreement, how naive is that?
(just to be on the safe side not to create misunderstandings - the last sentence is meant ironic. )


Now this is something we agree on 100%.

there is no refund

Well, it was worth checking - you never know unless you ask.
Berne is a beautiful place - at the very least it's a nice place to spend a few days...have a lovely trip

Conclusion.

Touchmysoul wrote on this forum and also on other places, that she lost money because she has a "non refund" ticket for the flights.
Some other people complain also, that Touchmysoul lost money. I think it is not "wise" to post something like that on the internet.
I dont know the motives from Touchmysoul to post it here, but I have my opinion about the reasons.
People dont know the background and the full story.

I speak with Panart about this sad story. The Hangmakers told me, that they will pay the price for one ticket. Panart recommend people to visit the
Hanghouse alone. It is not the responsibility from Panart, if people book extra tickets for escort.

I read on handpan.org, that Touchmysoul wrote, she will lost the most money anyway, because the tickets are non refundable.
Panart will only pay the Air Fare and not the Aiport Taxes and Fees. That is absolute correct.
If you have a "non refundable" ticket, only the Air Fare is non refundable. Airport Taxes and Fees must be payed back from the airline!
Also, if the ticket is "non refundable".

Touchmysoul. Please contact your booking agency. They will explain you, what to do. The airline must pay you the Taxes and Fees.
It is likely, that they will only pay, after the date of the flight. So, it is sure, that you dont use this ticket.
And maybe you must pay a "handling fee". This could be the amount you lost.

I think Panart was very fair. Touchmysoul ask for an refund and they decide to pay the tickets. This was the result from asking Panart direct.
Not because of people wrote on the internet, that Panart is unfair. Maybe it is better to remind, that people dont know, all the facts.

Now the story is more complete.

Frank

Me too.

I have an opinion as well. (But it seems like we are all keeping it to ourselves, so I'll follow.)

It was PANArt's decision to cancel the appointment, and there is a fairness in them taking responsibility for at least the full financial consequences.

What if it were the other way around, and TouchesMySoul decided not to go to Bern for the appointment, and didn't take the flight? Would it be reasonable for her to expect PANArt to reimburse anything? Of course not! That would have been her decision, so she would bear the consequences of that decision.

It seems that it is hit-or-miss in terms of getting a refund on taxes and fees on nonrefundable tickets (both in the U.S. in Europe, although there may be some differences). Nevertheless, it doesn't seem fair that TouchesMySoul should bear the cost of the handling or administrative fee, since it was not her decision to cancel the appointment.

For a conclusion, let's add the other perspective as well. (maybe we can agree to leave different opinions next to each other and not get back into arguing)
One could say that it was probably the only choice she had to be heard with her case, which is an important one. Now also other people applying for a FIH know more about the process and the "traps" on the way (most importantly of course the "handpan.org-trap"), and will be more aware what kind of posts to write on the forums. Good for them, thanks to TouchesmySoul's thread.
Also there was a lot of cool info and perspective info about the FIH in the threads (thanks Michael and Frank) which in my case helped me to understand better the concept.




In many cases (also from my personal experience), it is not possible to get taxes and handling fees back from an airline when canceling flights. Maybe she is lucky, maybe not.



One could argue that it is not very fair in the first place to take back an agreement like this once it is given.



Mmmh, I wonder why?



Now it is.

David

David.

There is a law, that an airline must pay back Taxes and Fees, if the passenger dont fly. This has nothing to do with luck.

Maybe people have problems with budget airlines, but Touchmysoul has tickets from Lufthansa. This should not be a problem.


Frank

Although the PANart hang is arguably the best in quality and sound, it does not suit everybody. Do not believe your hang/ handpan days are over before they have begun. There are cheaper more accessable hangs out there that may please you just as much. I have a Bali handpan in D minor and a penta C PANart hang and I much prefer the sound of the bali handpan. Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

it looks like panart chooses their cutomers very carefully.. i can not know why they refuse to sell one to you but i can guess that saying something like : " I want an Eclipse" and "the shape and the practice of moving my hands in a similar way to a handpan " were problematic sentences. i'm no panart expert but from what i can see , if you decided you want a "panart hang" you shouldnt think of buying others.. there are alot of copies and "hang like" instruments today on the market which i can guess panart dont really like to see (for good reasons if you ask me) its only a guess of course..