hangforum.com - The Archive

This is an answer to Aaron Ximm's last very long post on handpan.org, quoted above in this thread by greenoak.

In this post he requests me personally to make PANArt stop the litigation against Luis regarding his imitation of the Hang called BElls.

If we look at all recently posted texts on handpan.org (some quoted here) we often find a war rhetoric. Someone invented the formulation "war on handpans" and this was often repeated by others. The picture of a big evil aggressor PANArt and a week unguilty victim Luis Eguiguren runs like a red thread through many postings.

But reality isn't such simple. In a conflict there are usually two parties.

The conflict between PANArt and Luis Eguiguren is about two years old. And forum members like Aaron, who follow the events around Hang and Handpans for a while, know this. Also the litigation is not a new event. It started about one year ago. Since this time everyone who wanted to know was able to know that it was a serious interest of PANArt that Luis Equiguren stops building exact Hang imitations.

PANArt has asked Luis firstly personally and when this was without success with the help of a lawyer to change the design of his instrument. But Luis never joined serious negotiations. He obviously thought it was ok what he was doing.

For those who are not familiar with the Hang and the BElls (the instrument built by Luis Equiguren) here are two pictures showing a Hang and a BElls. Everybody can look and consider which of these instruments is the Hang and which is the BElls.



Now Aaron asks me to make PANArt stop the litigation regarding unfair competition. Where is the sense in this? What arguments could I give to convince them? Is there really a chance that Luis Eguiguren will join negotiations after PANArt canceled the litigation, when he didn't do this for two years with as well as without a litigation?

I mentioned that in a conflict there are usually two parties. I am very astonished that Aaron addressed only PANArt. Not a single word that Luis should or could contribute to a conflict resolution too. Isn't that strange? And isn't that out of touch with reality as a conflct resolution needs both parties in any case?

And I ask: If it is so important that Aaron sent four long E-Mails to me and one open letter on handpan.org, what has he done in the last two years to convince Luis Eguiguren to join negotiations with PANArt? What has the handpan community done to convince Luis Eguiguren to join negotiations with PANArt?

There was only applause. Go on Luis, go on!

And Aaron supported Luis Eguiguren by writing a sort of expertise for him in which he explained why Hang and BElls are so different. I think this support must have been very convincing for Luis that he is right imitating the Hang and rejecting negotiations with PANArt.

Now Aaron distracts from his own responsibility by giving me the moral responsibility to "redeem" PANArt and save the handpan.

There is no "devil's work" (as someone wrote a few days ago on handpan org). Let's stay realistic. Spain is a constitutional democracy. And a Spain court is exact the right place to bring conflicts to a solution that cannot be resolved by the two parties alone.

Michael

Thanks for this post michael. I understand the issues that panart has with bellart and have dine since the beginning but can you please shed light on the exact issues that panart has with the other makers of handpans that they have sent legal letters to please?

Thanks for your time

M/C

really hard to tell...

my best guess is that Bells is on the left picture, right?

Well I do agree with many points Michael made.

To me the left one seems a Bellart bell.

Hello,

you have a 50:50 chance, but you cant see it. Maybe you have seen one of those pictures in the foretime, because one was public.

I dont know, what the Hang is and I have this Hang generation standing in front of me on the floor.

I think a good point and question from Michael P. is :

what has Luis done in all the time and what Aaron and other people ?


Frank

Hello,

The similarity between bells and hang is enormous...

But, the new bells, whimfire, is different, no ? This is not a sign of Luis ?




( http://bellart.es/index.html )

Maybe the dimensions are the same, but, today it's not possible to confuse a hang ( especially first gen, Integral Hang and Free Integral Hang ) and a bells ( especially Whimfire and old bells, "first gen" ).

Charaxes

Hello Charaxes,

welcome.

I have seen pictures from the newest Bells Version. And those pictures are only the next example, how Luis try to copy the Hang.
Panart changed the color and make the Free Hang dark. Luis did the same.
Luis has changed a lot of pictures on his website and he deleted a lot of topics on Handpan.org.
He did that, because he know, that this could be not good for him on the coming court. I dont wonder, that he try to make some
last minute BElls, with a little difference. I think this is the wrong motivation...

Yes, it is a sign from Luis. It is a sign, that he want to do last actions, to have a better chance on court.
But on internet you cant hide anything, what was online. And a lot of photos from very similar instruments are easy to find.

Greetings

Frank

Thanks for your answer and your welcome Frank

I understand well, but in this time, today, the bells is different, in the aspect, with "scrolls" and the caoutchou.
And this last few months, a friend had his bells Whimfire in April.
Maybe the explanation of "whimfire" is your assumption, it's very possible, but "last minutes is a little bit exaggerated.", no ?

Sorry for my bad english, it's not my native langage.

All the best for all.

Charawes

It is you who cannot be confused because you have seen the BElls on http://www.bellart.com. Therefor you know that some details are typical for the BElls. But someone who is not an expert and don't know the pictures that are published on http://www.bellart.com and was published there in former times, will be confused. These people can easily think that the BElls is a version of the Hang.

How easy it is to pass off a BElls as a Hang is for example demonstrated by this website:
http://www.drumpoi.com

Michael

Hi everybody. Hopefully I can bring some light to this conversation.




This is a great example Michael of what exactly Hang means. It is a class of instruments, not a brand. Here is the translated text from their site:

- Google translated from Portuguese > English

They clearly acknowledge that that the one they have, their BellArt, is different from the couple who invented it in Switzerland(PanArt). I hope this clears up some confusion.

Well but this is clearly wrong, as far as I know. Since Hang is a registered trademark (marked by the registered trademark symbol ®) nobody else is allowed to use this term in association with another product. Sure, I am a legal amateur. But I am convinced that Hang as a registered trademark deserves protection.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong in this respect!

Señor Michael Paschko.

Me irrita y molesta profundamente que algunas personas llamar Hang® a los BElls®.
BEllArt® no es culpable de la falta de informacion, ignorancia, estupidez o mala voluntad de algunas personas.
En mi web (http://www.BEllArt.es) pone muy claramente el nombre de mis esculturas "BElls®", y no hay ninguna referencia de "Hang®" o "Panart®", en atencion y respeto de la peticion de Felix y Sabina.

BEllArt ha gastado mucho dinero el poner BEllArt® y BElls®, como MARCAS REGISTRADAS.
Por tanto es evidente que no deseo que la gente confundir BElls® con otras "esculturas" diferentes.

Yo personalmente he enviado email a Agnelli Phelipe y he pedido que corregir esto inmediatamente en su web y youtube, pero todavia no ha respondido...

Phelipe Agnelli conoce perfectamente que sus esculturas son BElls®. No entiendo por que Èl esta haciendo esto.
BEllArt no es responsable de estos actos.
Quiza deberian preguntar a Phelipe Agnelli porque hace esto?, y cual es su intencion?

Paz y Bien
+Luis Eguiguren+
BEllsmaker

PD: Le recuerdo que todo el contenido de http://www.BEllArt.es es propiedad privada de BEllArt, incluido los comentarios y las fotografias.

Remember, anyone can register anything they want. However, trademarks have certain requirements and rules to keep your mark. Every country has their own rules so it varies. A common rule is the use of the mark which requires the mark to be used on the physical product. A mark also risks becoming generic, as has happened with many large marks (take a look at the case of zipper or aspirin). Trademarks becoming generic is fairly common with a new class of products.

There has been much disinformation and a lot of loss of goodwill. If you sell an original hanghang on Ebay, you have the full right to use any and all marks and this is something that Ebay has defended in many cases before. Yet many people still get contacted by Panart(I believe through Michael) telling them they are not allowed to use the mark.

The legal status at the moment is that "Hang" is a protected trademark in the EU, but not in the US.

I wonder what the source of this information is.
This information is incorrect.

The protection of the trademark Hang is granted by the United States Trademark & Patent Office.

Michael

This is wrong.

PANArt never contacted any eBay user who listed a PANArt Hang telling him that he is not allowed to use the trademark Hang.

Hola Luis,

Hay muchos anos que no escribo en Espanol; perdoname si no escribo bien; ha!

Pero, comprendo con facilidad lo que veo aqui. Gracias a Ud por todo que ha escrito.

Esperando que todo va bien con Ud., y sera clarificado bien y sin problemas.

Tal vez un dia pedire un BElls de Ud.

Con respeto,
Carolina de Moron (como me llamo la gente de Moron de la Frontera - hace casi 40 anos!)
Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:08:38 (PDT)

BELLS looked like Hang, whether they do now is of no consiquence, the problem has existed and continues to exist that Luis (from what I have seen and heard) has not opened up communications with PANArt... I have nothing personally against Luis, i've never met him or spoken to him and i'm sure he is a loverly, caring and genrerous man. But the facts remain, the BELL looks too similar to the HANG, I could not tell the difference and would only be hazzarding the guess at which was which in those pictures.

I'm asking the same question now that Michael Colley has asked, what is the nature of PANart sending legal threats to other makers, predominantly Pantheon Steel? What is the justification? the reasons? the desired outcome?

I know PANart and some users of this forum are heavily against the Halo (unjust in my opinion as it's a great instrument) but what is the motivation now from PANart to chase legally? what do they hope to gain? I'm seeing conflicting information that would publically so far deny any legal intentions towards Pantheon Steel.

@Tzevaot - man, seriouslly leave the name HANG alone... you keep harping on about it being the name of the collective instruments and that everyone has the right to use it because the name cannot be trademarked etc etc but you're just makin yourself look silly now. Everyone will continue to use the term Handpans as it's pretty much instilled into the community as a name now, HANG is PANarts like Halo is Pantheon Steels, BELLArt have the BELL they are not HANG, never will be and that's that.... whether its legal or not, Respect and the matter of fact that it is the way it is.

Hello,

a lot of times, people read something on the internet, and belief it without to check the real facts.
On internet anybody could write anything. You must have this in mind, if you browse the WWW. So, here is the proof, that Hang is a registered Trade mark in the United States.

I think the United States Patent and Trademark office is the best source.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f= ... f1g0.2.123

Edit. I just see, that the link work only for a short time. Go to Tess and search Hang. On page 3 of the results you could find the registration.

Frank

Hello Kelly,

I remember, that I write only my personally thoughts an opinions. I see, that at the moment a lot of missinformation is made from a handfull people.
Maybe there is a problem between two companys. But we dont know the facts about that. So, we should be carefull. But, I see that the mission to badmouth Panart is on Handpan.org very effective. Very sad.

A good example, for such thing a few people call "legal threats" from Panart is the mail from Felix Rohner to Spike. I think it is not good to make private e-mails public.
In germany it is against the law, for good reasons. But Spike did it. So, we can speak about this mail, because it is a very good example, how this "legal threats" look like.

Felix ask Spike not to call the central not on his slit tongue drum "Ding". It is a private mail from Felix Rohner and not a mail from an lawyer to "shut down" Spike.
I see, why Felix ask Spike not to use this name. It realy belongs to Panart and the Hang.
It is sad, that Spike not post also his answer to Felix. Because that is much more funny, and people will have something to laugh.

The "Ding" is a very complex construction. Why Spike called his deepest note "Ding"? What has the deepest note on an Tongue Drum to do with the Hang?
Nothing. I think this is not the question.

Here is one example, what people call "legal threats". For me it looks only like a personally request to respect Panarts work. Felix told Spike to make his own thing.
That is all.


http://www.handpan.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 970#p51970


So, it is time for breakfast.

Frank