hangforum.com - The Archive

Hello,

Frank Sturm writes:



and



I do computer stuff for my day job - they call it Information Technology (IT for short). I am a manager of a software group. We often ask our 400 users how things are going. For the most part we hear nothing. People do not complain. However recently we checked to see how many times the software crashes.

From my regular reports I would have guessed it only crashed 4 times per week based on the people who complain. However when we ran our automatic crash tracking program, we found that the application crashes 27 times a day.

My point is that where there is smoke there is fire. A few people choose to voice their complaints. The rest lay dormant. Or worse yet they convince themselves that things are "as they should be". That is called Cognitive Dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

So someone who is blindfolded by the mystique of the Hang is convinced that is sounds correct.

But my findings about human behavior tell me something different - for every person that complains (in my IT experience) there are 20 others thinking the same thing.

So I read it OPPOSITE of what you describe Frank. Instead of a few "whiners" (nice), there are a lot of confused people.

Also I might add that those who have recently raised their voices are old-school ardent supporters of the Hang - not just some fly-by-night forum watcher.

-greenoak

--------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---

Let me also add that I like the FIH concept. I have been on the handpan scene only recently, but I get it (or maybe using the word "handpan" shows I don't get it )

However I think this is a reasonable discussion to have "out loud" as it were.

Complaints or perceptions - if only from a vocal few - are totally valid. Perception trumps reality every time.

greenoak

-------------------

As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.
--- Mikhail Naimy ---

Hello Greenoak,

I will split this topic later, because I will answer on your topic, when I have more time.
And this is a seperate, general discussion and has not so much relation to the Free Tuning topic. I hope you feel, this is o.k. Only for better reading and not so much confusion.

By the way. I cant wrote on Handpan.org, because I ask not longer to be a member.
There is a member FOH on your Forum.
Aaron Ximm (one of the people I speak about) is confused, because he dont can imagine, that other people except Michael and I have some questions.
It seems, that FOH name is also Frank.
I have nothing to do with FOH.
Aaron told FOH that he is thinking that FOH is maybe A "spy, paid by Panart" .
Yes, the same people search anytime for negativity. And later I will explain a little bit more, "why and who".
By the way. Feel free, to post whatever you want. It is not the truth , that we have heavy moderation, as you can easy see on the last discussions.
This was only "marketing" by the same people.
Please have in mind, that my german would sound likely more refined and that my englisch is very direct. But this is not meant unfriendly.

Greetings
Frank

Hi Michael,

this is a good point. I also played instruments that have so much resonance that it becomes disturbing.
One of my 1st Gen Hang can have this effect for me some times, depending on my mood and state of mind of the day. Sometimes I enjoy it, sometimes it is a bit much, because this particular instrument has a bit "hard" overtones.
But personally I would not trade exact tuning for a bit more control of resonance. From Victor's work I know that he has various ways to control the amount of resonance without sacrificing tuning.

With the hang he recently retuned for me, I perceived the additional resonance after tuning as extremely beautiful, it felt like the instrument had "opened up".
I guess this is also a question of personal taste. You can listen here and compare before and after: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVBPRZkOwKU

Regarding the reverb added to the comparison video, it was a minimal amount to compensate for the lack of room sound when having the microphones close. I also though about this in advance and wasn't sure if it is a good idea, but imo it gives a more representative listening experience, since we usually don't listen to a player from 50 centimeters close. (unless we are REALLY fascinated and can't help ourselves )



Unfortunately I have no background in science of sound and physics, so I can not really add anything to this level of the discussion. It seems to be quite a deep and interesting subject.
As I mentioned before, I find the general concept of the FIH creative and challenging. At least regarding the ones I have tried I can say it doesn't work for me, but I would be curious to try others and see if I would find some that I resonate with.
I am relatively sure that as a musician in the end I would probably always prefer a "traditionally" tuned instrument, but one can never know .

The "spy" accusation is indeed unproductive and hurtful to people's feelings. It is not so cool that now everyone that supports PanArts ideas is called a potential spy and it is also counter-productive to fruitful discussions.
It is also an issue that can be resolved in a very simple way.
We can just ask (without accusing), and I would trust that you would probably answer truthfully. Then we can stop the pointless accusations.
Michael, Frank, did one of you bring TouchesMySoul's posts to Felix attention which lead to the canceling of her hang-offer?


PS: I stopped posting in both english and german simply because it takes a lot of time, but if there are any language issues, just let me know and I can clarify stuff in German.

Hello David,

I will answer on your question, but only in german. I have no time and no desire to answer this question in english, because I am in danger, to translate something wrong. I know, that a few people only search my mistakes, or the mistakes from other people.
Sorry, for all who cant read german. Be carefull with an online translation. This is very tricky and it is likely, that you will understand me wrong!

German:

Erstens empfinde ich Deine Frage auch schon als eine Art indirekte Anschuldigung. Warum fragst Du Michael und mich? Naja, es liegt natürlich nahe, da wir bekanntlich ein gutes Verhältnis zu Panart haben und die Arbeit der Panart unterstützen.
Das nun alle möglichen Leute bei Handpan.org verdächtigt werden, amüsiert mich, ehrlich gesagt ein wenig. Und daher habe ich nicht vor, Deine Frage zu beantworten.
Es zeigt nämlich sehr schön auf, wie die Dinge dort laufen und wer dort auf welchem "Trip" ist.

Außerdem bringt das sowieso nichts.

Angenommen ich war es nicht und sage das auch so. Was dann? Du wirst mir vielleicht glauben, aber einige Leute bei Handpan.org glauben mir sowieso nicht.

Angenommen ich war es, aber lüge. Dann sind wir auch nicht weiter. Es ist natürlich schonmal von Dir psychologisch recht clever, daß Du mir einräumst nicht zu lügen.
Könnte aber ja auch sein, daß ich wirklich völlig abgebrüht bin und doch lüge.

Angenommen ich war es und sage es auch. Was dann? Ich war ja gerade die ganze Zeit am Pranger von Handpan.org, bis ich mich da nun mit meinem Austritt aus dem Forum , selber entlassen habe.

Oder ich war es garnicht und sage nun einfach mal so , daß ich es war. Könnte auch spannend sein. So langsam sehe ich die Foren nämlich als "Sozialstudie" mit einer gehörigen Portion "Realsatire". Da kann man schonmal auf komische Gedanken kommen.

Jedenfalls habe ich aus einer Reihe von Gründen überhaupt keine Lust, da nun Licht in die Sache zu bringen.
Unter anderem darum, wie man bei Handpan.org mit mir umgegangen ist. Ich wurde einfach mal so zensiert (moderiert) und in die gleich Ecke gestellt, wie Leute die dort übelste Nazikommentare abgeben usw... (Screenshots gefällig?)
Dabei habe ich garnichts getan. Ich war sogar im Urlaub und habe Wochen nichts geschrieben. Ich bin da mal ganz vorsichtshalber zensiert worden, weil ich für einige Leute dort unbequem bin oder Sachen sagen könnte, die man dort nicht sagen darf.
Z.b besteht eine Selbstzensur des Forum, das man nicht über den aktuellen Bells Preis reden darf, oder über den Preis vom SPB.

Du kannst nun denken was Du willst. Zu 50 Prozent wirst Du Dich irren.

Ist nicht böse gemeint. Denk mal drüber nach, was da gerade abläuft.

Frank

Dear Frank,

My apologies that you felt accused by my question, I tried to be clear that I didn't mean it that way.
The choice not to answer the question is of course yours. From reading your posts in the past, I know that you have strong opinions and are not afraid to stand by them also if they are unpopular. If you had answered, I would have believed you either way.
The question is not of personal importance to me and I don't feel offended by your not answering, but thanks anyway for pointing that out.
It would have been a simple way to stop the pointless accusations, but that you prefer to be amused by them is of course a statement as well .


--------


Hallo Frank,

entschuldige daß Du Dich durch meine Frage beschuldigt gefühlt hast, so war es nicht gemeint und ich hatte versucht das deutlich zu machen.
Die Entscheidung nicht zu Antworten liegt natürlich bei Dir.
Aus Deinen Forumsbeiträgen in der Vergangenheit weiß ich das Du starke Meinungen hast und diese vertrittst, auch wenn sie unpopulär sind.
Hättest Du also die Frage beantwortet hätte ich Dir geglaubt, egal was die Antwort gewesen wäre.
Die ganze Geschichte betrifft mich nicht persönlich und ich fühle mich nicht durch Deine (Nicht-)Antwort angegrifen, danke trotzdem für die Klarstellung .
Es wäre ein einfacher Weg gewesen, die unnötigen Beschuldigungen zu beenden, aber dass Du Dich lieber darüber amüsierst ist natürlich auch ein Statement .

Let's return to the topic.

I had an interesting insight today.
Since the beginning I had the experience that from time to time the sixth tone field of my Free Hang sounds too sharp. After a while I found out that this is the case whenever I hold the Hang in a certain way but I didn't understand why.

Today I found this out: When I perceive this special tone field as too sharp the Hang is supported by the heel of my left (and only ) foot. In these cases the heel touches the Gu side of the Hang exactly under the tone field in question. The perception as to sharp vanishes immediately when I raise the Hang slightly so that it doesn't touch the heel any longer.

Then I began to research what the contact of the heel does and found out: This contact amplifies the first mode of the tone field.

Afterwards I had a closer listening to the three modes and found out that the first mode of this tone field is a bit sharper than "correct" while the second and third modes are at the "correct" places.

Now the question was: Why is the pitch perception not "too sharp" when the first mode is not amplified? I think the answer lays in what I already wrote in a few posts on top of this topic using the example of streched tuning of a piano: Our brain calculates what we perceive as pitch by using all partials of a sound. And the detuning as well as the dynamic are parameters in this calculation of our brain. Therefor a tone can be perceived as in tune although some or all of its partials are in fact detuned.

Then I thought about the Free Hang played by David in the above discussed "Hang and Handpan Comparison" video: This Hang sounded out of tune. After some tests with different excitation techniques on my Free Hang I found out that you can play the Hang in a way that the first mode is highlighted and in other ways so that all the modes "come to their rights". This reminded me on a event when I had the possibility to follow a Hang tuning by Eckhard C. Schulz. The Hang owner had brought Jeff Hijlkema to support him to check out the tuning result. After Eckhard C. Schulz had finished his tuning I had a remarkable experience: When Jeff played the retuned Hang it sounded quite ok. But when I played it, it didn't sound beautiful. It sounded out of balance and the subtleties of the sound were disturbing.

Considering all this I came to the following hypothesis: There are playing techniques (and I think they are preferred by percussionists) that accentuate the first modes. The consequence of this techniques on an instrument with all fundamentals in tune but problems with the upper partials is that the problems doesn't show up. But on the Free Hang the consequence is exactly the opposite: It will sound out of tune. So we need a touch of the Free Hang that gives all the partials their "rights" to contribute to a beautiful sound perceivable as "in tune".

Michael

Hi,

regarding the 6th tonefield (F), I experienced a recognizable interaction with the 7th tonefield (A). Influence of (A) is major and can result in a "sharp" sound of (F). (Depending on the playing technique, position of the Hang and some other parameters). Btw, touch&hold of (A) minimizes this effect.

Bye Frank

I am not sure whether I used the correct term. With "too sharp" I meant the perception that the frequency of the pitch seems to be higher than correct. In German: " zu hoch". Ich meine nicht scharf oder schrill. I don't mean sharp in the meaning of shrill.

Oh, got it. Sorry 4 misinterpretation.

thought I might chime in. (that is - add my overtone to some partial dominant 4th )

This whole topic seems to be the "antithesis" (opposite, reverse) of the whole concept of an Free Integral Hang.

I don't know a partial from a 5th from a inverse dominant 2nd.

I thought the FIH was supposed to be about the feel of the sound body - or a reflection (mirror) of our inner selves.

To deconstruct in so many details is kind of weird - and in many respects - is actually harmful to the way we interpret these things.

I am reminded of my college class on Literature and Writing (or my college class on Mythology for that matter...). I never knew what a protagonist was - or foreshadowing - or story arc... All I knew was that I liked (or did not like) a story. I received a top grade in the class, but I was stripped of my innocence. In addition I was confined to a "defined box" that is literature.

In fact, I will never forget the day that a friend pointed out how Tie Fighters flew across the screen in the Star Wars movie - the original . My friend paused the video. He then pointed out the matte paintings and how they rotated across the screen. Since that day I can not watch Star Wars and not see those matte edges

What this means for me is all this talk of "this handpan" vs "that Hang" is "beside the point". If what you play reflects (mirrors) you, then it is all good.

Am I "off the mark" or missing something?

-greenoak

Hi greenoak,
I understand your worries but I think there is no danger. If it would be as dangerous as you fear Felix Rohner and Sabina Schärer couldn't enjoy Hang playing any longer becaue they know much more about the physics and details of the Hang than anybody of us. But obviously they enjoy Hang playing. Scientific research and looking for details and conditions on the one hand and integral intuitive tuning or playing are two sides of the same coin. Both were necessary for the development of the Hang. And both are necessary if a player is confronted with problems or called into question.

If someone is not interested in scientific research and looking for details and condition but enjoys playing his Hang, that's ok. But looking at both sides of the coin isn't dangerous.

Now to the function of this topic:
I opened this topic after a discussion on handpan.org where the Free Hang was called into question. Some members stated that the Free Hang was just a bad tuned instrument, an out of tune instrument. I tried to explain my understanding of the free tuning there but was obviously not very successful. Therefor I thought it is an important topic and decided to write something about it on hangforum.com. That post didn't receive many replies, only Victor Levinson who was interested in answers about the "chamber resonance" problem he had detected. Then some days ago Victor returned to this topic and told about a Free Hang and described it as an instrument that cannot be enjoyed. He told us details and measure results of the modes that he had made with his tuning device.

The question I want to discuss here is why detuning is a good tuning an not a bad tuning. It seems that some people think that the challenge of the Free Hang is to enjoy nasty sounds. I don't think so. Playing the Free Hang produces beautiful and touching sounds. Sounds which are so beautiful and touching that a Free Hang playing friend of mine told me that he scarcely plays his Integral Hang since he has his Free Hang. And he is not a masochist. So we have the analytic statements by victor and the presentation of the Free hang in the "Hang and Handpan Comparison" where it seems to be the worst Hang of all played Hanghang. To deal with these questions we have to go into the detail. But this alone will not help if we don't also use the other side of the coin: The integral and intuitive playing and perception.

And as a résumé:
What did this discussion do with me personally? Actually when I dealt with Victor's questions on the top of this thread about "chamber resonance" problems I began to perceive problems on my Hanghang for quite some days. There I understood that analytic listening and playing is not the way to play and perceive the Hang. But this doesn't mean that understanding more details will hinder you to grow as a Hang player. I personally found out tat seeing and practicing both sides of the coin helped me a lot. I can say: After I understood the heel of foot phenomenon and knowing that the first modes of some tone fields of my Free Hang are actually tuned a bit higher than "correct" (and that this is not a problem but an improvement), the sounds coming out of my Free Hang are more beautiful and touching than before and I enjoy my Free Hang playing more than ever.

I think maybe you missed my point.

I am glad that someone gets all the details - especially the makers. And I'm happy for you if knowledge of the details makes your playing more enjoyable.

But knowledge of these trivial details - to a player (or more specifically me) - can cloud the mind. It is distracting. It can lead one to become unhappy with this note or that note.

These hunks of metal that produce sound are just mirrors to our inner self, no more, no less. I just play. I try to be "in the moment".

Perhaps I should not have read this thread

greenoak

Hello,

I understand, what Michael wrote and I think one of the reason for his answer in detail, was that Victor Levinson point out some very technical things.
he start to speak about this or that overtone... beating here and there... chord playing and so on and on...
physics of tuning and also playing...
To explain, that the Free Hang is technical a "better" tuning, you must explain things in the way Michael did.

I understand also Greenoak. I am also dont think in that analytic way.
I play. If it sounds and feels good, everything is fine. i know, that any Hang is different, but my experience is, that I learn intuitiv. For me it is importand, that Gu and Ding are "connected".
A few hits on the Gu and I have found the right position to play. After that I dont care about technical stuff.
It is very interesting to understand the technical part, but I need it not for my playing.
I have no background in musical theory and I dont miss it for playing the Hang.
Maybe it is better (for me!) only to feel the sound and dynamic. That is all what I need.
Open ears and a free mind. And a quiet place, but this is in my home no problem.

I hope that I wrote something, what makes sense. I am not in the mood, to ask an online translator. For an better answer, I need much time and at the moment it is better ad easyer for me, to go in the kitchen.
Chicken Thai Style with asparagus and champignons....
A bottle of cold white wine....
Better as complicated translations.
But on monday, I try to wrote more accurat.

Frank

Hello Greenoak,

I'm very happy that you take part in this forum, because I really appreciate your view and experience! Your approach to follow your life melody is perfect. Some of your videos give the viewer a deep insight, thank you for sharing such moments!
I see the free HANG, similar to you, as an intensifier. Therefore, it is also important for me to interpret the nuances, to understand some more details. Not to make the play more enjoyable, but I hope for a look behind my mirror.

Have a nice day .. Frank

does anyone knows the reason for making the free integral not in perfect tuning?..

Hi there all,

I would be really delighted, if You could help me, where and how can I get my Hang tuned!
I'm in Hungary, but maybe in february I can visit Switzerland.

Please inform me about the conditions (price, place, time needed) of the tuning!

Thank You very much in advance
Balázs

It all depends on your Hang, did you but it from PANart? if the answer is no, then you'll need to find someone else that will tune your Hang.

Although to be fair even if you did buy it from PANart, if it's not actually damaged then it's unlikely that they will be able help either as they no longer offer a retuning service for Hang.

A Hang played correctly should never need to be retuned.

You will have to look for a tuner elsewhere I think.

Thanks for the fast answer!
I bought it in 2003, Austria from an official distributor!
Not on e-bay, or my friend, or anything like that, but not directly from PANart, that's true.

And my Hang (unfortunatelly) not a Free Integral Hang, but a previous one (2. generational one).
sorry for using this forum, but I couldn't find anything else about the tuning.

I hope there is some opportunity. I don't want anybody to ruin my instrument....