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Hallo,

we must be a little bit carefull. The discussion is confusing if we speak about all topics in only one (this) Thread.
The main topic here was the question about the quality of Hang imitations. Werner start a topic about the Bells.
At the moment I know only two reasons where Panart refuse Hangplayer a tuning.
1. The Hang was sold with profit.
2. The Hangplayer play the Hang over the limit again and again.

In the second case Panart was very patient with the Hangplayers. They told this persons a few times, that there is a limit and that the Hang is not made for to hard playing or drumming.
But, what should they do if people ignore that totally?
Rumours were afloat on Handpan.org that there are other reasons. Have a closer look, where the people are who bring such rumours in the world.
Do they realy know, the background?
I remember me that a short time ago a rumour take place, that Panart refuse a tuning because the players use sticks to play. Maybe it could realy be a reason for a refusal, because sticks could easy detune the Hang. It is no secret, that Panart make the Hang for the Hand and not for sticks.
Of course they are not happy, if people dont understand that. But, the real reason was, that the Hang they should tune was sold with a big profit.

Felix and Sabina dont know how to tune a "Hangdrum". They dont know how to tune a "Handpan". They dont know how to tune a Hang, if it should work as a linear chromatic instrument. It could be that they must say "Sorry....." in some cases. But not, because they want to dictate how the Hang should be used. They have an idea and they optimize the Hang for the human being. If anybody want a Hang optimized for "drumming" it could be that they must say: "Sorry....... " Is this so hard to understand?
The player is free to play the Hang in any way. Panart is also free to tune it or not.

This is only my personally belief and opinion!

PS: I wrote this in the time Ixkeys made his posting. As I said above. We confuse the people with to many questions. Better to open another topic.

Let´s speak about the quality aspects.

Frank

One final off-topic thing I'd like to add; (if it is moved to a new topic concerning retunes, please include all the original relevant messages including yours Funky )

In one of the PANArt publications I got around the time I got my Integral Hang, it said something down the likes of; or look for a voice, another instrument, or a bird in a tree to play with.
As I cannot find the source now (but clearly remember it) I have two other quotes for you from original PANArt publications (feel free to check the 2008 hang booklet for yourself on Hangblog.org to see I didn't take it out of context).

A part of page 20 of the English version;


We recommend approaching the instrument in freedom.

~At times, pay attention to the sounds of the hands as they touch the surface, at other times pay attention to the musical results, at other times pay attention to the voices of the angels in the realm of the overtones, and sometimes... pay attention to nothing at all.

We wish you much joy and inner peace.


Basically this is exactly my vision on the Hang, and how I play it. It is all those aspects and more, not just one. That I am not representing all these roles of the Hang on YouTube is ok, I'm not obliged to. This does not mean it's not there .



I also found this small line in the Integral Hang agreement, which I thought speaks on this subject (it's printed on the next page);


The instrument makers are keen to foster and promote traditional musical expression with these new instruments~


To be clear this is part of a sentence in which they explain the reason for the agreement, and that they PANArt wants to make the instruments available regardless of people's financial circumstances - for this reason making the 'droit de suite' agreement. Still, the message to me is clear as day, and from PANArt itself.


While they are ofcourse free to deny a retune to whoever they wish, I would not think it to be fair to be denied a retune for making music with my Hang, or for in their opinion misunderstanding of misinterpreting it. And I don't see the chance of this happening as very likely, as like I said, I have some faith in their reasonable natures. Repeatedly bashing it out of tune and being warned about it - I can understand. Buying a Hang sold for profit - I can understand. As even though by my knowledge never officially published, these are known reasons to be denied a retune within the community. But to be denied a retune because of a change of vision by them, when this vision was quite different when I got my Hang (and this point is even more valid for older Hanghang, especially first gens bought in music shops), this would not seem right to me at all.

I too, recommend everyone to approach the instrument in freedom . But don't bash it too hard !

Hallo,

@Pulpfiction. Do you have only one example, where this was the case?

Frank

It was merely a response to your personal belief an opinion Frank.



I know Felix and Sabina have retuned Hanghang before that have been (mis)used as 'Hang Drum'. Also, for a long time, the Hang was 'just' a musical instrument, albeit a special one. It has been (and is continued to be) used in combination with other Hanghang as a linear chromatic instrument by some people, and these people have gotten retunes. For an example of this, check out this video at 7.30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzFH331ujLM . So that they 'couldn't' is clearly false. Perhaps in the future they will choose not to. Even though their vision changed, I can hardly imagine this, and yes, this would be extremely hard for me to understand. My reasoning is clear from my previous post(s).

Hallo,

@Pulpfiction.

I have the feeling you dont want to understand. What I wrote was a little bit metaphorical.
Apart from a few rumours I dont know about a person where a tuning was rejected by Panart.
They dont tune Hanghang sold with profit. They dont tune Hanghang from people who are so ignorant to play the Hang as a drum. I dont speak about rhythmic playing. I speak about beating the Hang with to much power again and again.

Posting like yours are the reason, why people think that there is a dictate "how to play the Hang".
I never made rules how to play. I could speak only about my own experiences with the Hang.
If you want to play the Hang with boxing gloves, it is up to you. Again a little bit metaphorical.
It is only the decision from Panart, what they want to do. Not yours and not mine.
Who said, that Panart will not tune a Hang if you use the Hang to make music. Who said this? Post a link to the source, please.
It seems, that a few people have a kind of paranoia.

Frank

Did you read my post Frank, or did you only look for which line you could quote to put a spin on it? I'm sorry to say but from your postings it really seems like that. And it is not an attempt to damage your reputation or credibility, or anything of the sort, just an observation. I'll quote the same sentence you did with the rest that came after, to put it in the right context again. Please read it again Frank, and tell me if postings like mine, are the cause... It seems to me you have a tendency to interpret things very negatively, because I was - to my idea quite clearly - trying to do the opposite: to set those people who are stuck in this fear free again..



This will be the last post on this for me now, I'm tired of this going around in circles, it's tiring and pointless.

Take care

Hallo,

you are not the first person, who end the discussion if I ask for a source about the rumours.

I am sure, that a lot of people understand what is going on.

Yes, I read your posting. No , I dont look only for a quote to put a spin on it.


Frank

why has my post been cut? the first lines have been removed but are valid to the retune posting... as such i've added it again - I do not think that by starting the post with my concerns about words getting back to PANart actually gives the entire context of the post and makes it look like i'm having a pop at Frank and IX which i'm not......





So what you are saying is that people are unjustifiably making allegations against PANart to defunct their work. By saying that people cannot get a retune due to varying reasons without actually having any real evidence.

It had already crossed my mind obviously, you try as best you can to sift through the garble on the net but this goes back to the same old same old… there is no actual face/written word from PANart, there is a huge negativity surrounding their business model from those trying to acquire a Hang and its becoming increasingly harder to differentiate fact from fiction without a spokesperson for PANart being on the forum… hell that’s why Kyle has Aaron and that’s why I certainly look to Frank and IX as the spokespeople of PANart.

Being so close to them there isn’t much in my opinion that you guys do not know about them and their ideas, to read what Frank has said about him not knowing of anyone that has been denied a retune on the ground of just playing their hang is refreshing and does quash a lot of the rumours that are flying around.

I think it’s a little unfair to say that Pulpfiction has ended the discussion because you asked for the source of the rumours… we all know that everyone watches and reads both forums out there and we all know that at times people have come on moaning about the retune issues, let alone the eBay and the rejection letters. Retunes has come up time and time again and I think its going to be time consuming and hard for Pulpfiction to trawl through posts and pull exact text from them…. Let alone the issues of then naming and shaming someone, that does nothing for good karma.

Yes, I am sure people do understand what is going on, there is a group of people out there growing daily no doubt that are unhappy with PANarts ideas on second hand sales, retunes and even getting hold of a Hang from them. Those people will become hostile, make allegations and try as best they can to upset the apple cart. What becomes hard is when people you’ve known for a long time are the ones that are making the allegations that they have bought a Halo and now they’re being told they cannot have a retune from PANart, yes we never know the full story and I try as best as I can to keep an open mind but it gets difficult, we’re all influenced in one way or another even if we don’t realise it at the time.

I received a personal email a month or so ago from someone that I hold in very high esteem. They are a Hang owner and performer and they told me that someone they know with a Hang has been in touch because they have been refused a retune… at the time I asked all the right questions, how do they play their Hang (hands or mallets) what was PANarts reason… I was told that they were stopping retunes for anyone that performs with their Hang on stage or as a busker because of the nature with which you have to play the Hang… as a busker you have to play loud to overcome the noises on the street (not that I’ve ever busked, I’m too chicken) it transpires that person plays with sticks and such has been back to PANart 4 or 5 times for retunes.

This obviously comes back to Werners post



Don’t treat your Hang like crap and it will continue to last a long time between retuning… if you ever actually need a retune.

So please do stop me if I am wrong but the current stance on a hang retune is:

1) do not play it like a drum, constant heavy playing will knock it out of tune and multiple events will result in PANart refusing a retune
2) do not use mallets, the Hang is to be played with the hands if you want to use mallets get a steel drum
3) Anything else is accepted as freedom of play and as long as you’re not returning your Hang to PANart for regular retuning then you have nothing to worry about.

If all it takes is a simple statement like the above to quash the fears then surely this could have been done a long long time ago, I apologize if it was, maybe I missed it, maybe I overlooked it but lets keep some sense of decency on the forums and just get along! Its an instrument that’s there to be played.

To end on a very poignant quote by Davide Swarup …. “Why just not play it and speak less about it?”

Warm regards to everyone

Hallo,

@Kelly

Your posting is not "cut". The original posting is complete on the forum where you post it.
IxkeysMod only "quote" the part about the tuning issues, because it is better for the reader. If you have to many topics in one thread it is confusing.
Nothing from your original posting is lost.

There is not only one deleted posting on this forum. Only spam. I have one exception. A posting was made with very personally insult against another member. This is against the netiquette and so this posting is on a place, where not all people can read it. This is a open place for all opinions.

I post this, because a few people think maybe that something was lost. Here is nobody who censor discussions.

Frank

Hallo,

@Kelly.

You speak also only about rumour.
If people read postings like yours, they dont know what is rumour and what is genuine truth. So, it is at the end no wonder that people are confused and fear that Panart will not tune their Hang.
I dont speak only about your posting. This posting is only one in a long serial of postings about this topic.

Frank

Yes but that's my point Frank. There are so many rumours it becomes hard to know fact from fiction without someone having it written in stone somewhere that this is the reason you will not get a retune.

I think what hasn't helped matters is that PANart have changed their vision on what the Hang is and should be used for... once upon a time they held their own music weekend at the hanghaus where hundreds of people would gather and play all weekend... this is no longer their vision on how the hang should be used and as such the speculations on how the hang should be used begin... how you shouldn't use then comes shortly behind followed by the rumours that you'll not get a retune if you sleep upside down in your bed on a Sunday night with the window open!!

That's a joke of course but its almost how silly the rumours are becoming and if nothing is said or done about it now then how far will it go???