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Frank,

what comes from your writing is critics and what comes from my writing is bad mouthing? where is that line?

i remember correctly that you were accusing people in fast money making, or maybe that was not you and i have missed something? i might agree with what you were saying back then, but does it change the nature of your actions?

wich question i have left unanswered? i may have missed something, this conversation is getting long and big.

except for tension, disscusing that topic i want you to follow me so nothing gets lost and i wouldnt have to repeat myself again and again.

Michael, my appology for this words. i trust you have your life the way you want it to be.

I was angree and i have a feeling that you judgements are based on your beliefs but not on the critical thinking and my aim was to take you out of your comofort zone to expand your imagination to the point where Panart could be not the "ideal" tuners or makers of the artform they have discovered(for what we all are gretfull to them), so we can continue the discussion in a more factual manner rather than one of the sides were operating with unprooved information introduced by a 3rd party(Panart in this case) wich i can sense because i read the same coming from you writing all over again.

for ex. any comparison to the steelpan artform is cut by you with simple phrase: Pang is different... it is not quite true, it has other properties but the mechanics and physical laws that apply stay the same just the figures are different.

sometimes it feels like Panart is trying to escape "competition" or comparison by getting to the zone wich is very "different" and therefore can not be criticized.

if you want to continue constructive conversation with me it is better if you cut what you have heard from Panart and use information that is available from other sources including your own experience, calculation, physical laws, etc how about that?

This reply doesn't consider your last posting because it was written before you posted it.


No, it is not taste. My opinion is that the Hang sound is a more elaborated sound. I have explained what I mean with this.


Perhaps it is better not to use the terms better and worse because it distract from the point I want to make. So let us not say whether it is better or worse let us leave this for personal preference for the moment. This is another discussion.


The Hang tuning is precise and accurate. It is not smooth. It is your opinion that smoother is better. You told me what in your opinon are the physical reasons for that. I will think this over and answer later to it.



I understood that. You say that PANArt is doing a bad work, "rush tuning". You say: "Panart has no system, as each note is tuned differently!"

You say: "more so, and i hear this from most respectable steelpan tuners: "i never saw a good steelpan from F. Rohner, they use best materials, they do researches, but tuning and building..." and they smile..."

And this was your initial statement about this topic:



In summary: PANArt makes bad instruments (remember: "never saw a good steelpan from F. Rohner")

Do your really think, that I let you say all this without contradicting you only because I am not a tuner?

I think you are confused by the Free Integral Hang. You ask yourself: How can this be an advancement? You don't find any system in the Hang tones. Each tone field seems to be tuned differently. You listen to modes not tuned exactly 1:2:3 and ask yourself: How can this be beautiful? You look at rough tone fields and this contradicts what you have learned about pan tuning: Note and edge must be smooth to get the best results.

These are questions, Victor. And questions are good, questions are important to increase knowledge. Why don't ask the important questions instead of accusing PANArt?

You came here and asked me about the free tuning. And when I shared with you my insights you told me to shut up because I am not a tuner ("it's a shame").

Communication doesn't work this way, Victor. Neither with me nor with PANart. I can understand that they don't answer you when you attacked them in the same way you did here in public.

Michael

Michael,

it is interesting how we see it differently - our conversation,

i love the sound of the Hang, well... most of them. and i admire all the effort Panart has done.
please keep that in mind!



did i say it is not sounding good? for earlier generations? i just confirmed what Echkard was saying, that each note has a different way of tuning, everytime. as long as it work for the sound - i dont care. but facts remain facts.

as for that FIH, i stay behind my words that to me it looks like rushly tuned, but who am i to judge, right?



those are not my words Michael, why you try to turn them against me. i have told them as i was told i didnt add anything from myself.



do you think i like what i saw and heard? trust me i was dissapointed and sad.

but i am telling you what i have seen with a hope that Panart will see this message and reconsider their path in making as well as in public relations. not to bad mouth anyone!



did i say that? i have told you it is not my words!


i dont have a perfect pitch, and i am not musically trained. i relly on my taste solely.

the appearence of the note surface plays important role in sound formation, energy storage and transfer, but more so the boundaries around the note. they can be edgy but it is better not to have "gaps" in the fence.



i dont see it like that Michael:
i see it this way: you go out public and claim FIH to be beyond other what people call "handpans" wich are "mainstream" and "quick money making" "instruments made to satisfy the big demand".

then i come here with an interest to argue with you because of the statements you have made! how does it feel for you when someone is acting like that? does it hurt?




have you talked with Panart about it?

my letter to them was polite though critical at the same time. perhaps international barrier is what go in a way?

how about them dont answer any of my mail, after they got what they wanted from me - a piece of my material! is that normal? i have written dozens of them! what? no interest in me anymore? i assume that is way unpolite, if you ask me.

when you need something from someone you talk to them, when you dont anymore - forget about them...ah?

I have heard stories how Panart was warm and welcome to their clients, open to people who were intersted in their artform...

is Panart the same now? i think hardly...

what happened? they closed doors, they dont communicate and support their old clients with whom they have had friendly relationship, just beacuse they have seen them playing Bells or a Halo or whatever other reasons.

they refuse to maintain their creations wich drift out of tune(and for me that is a fact i witness each week)

they legally threat people following their inspration.

they make judgements of people remotely...

now this FIH i have witnessed myself.

i wish they have remained the fire in their hearts for humanity in first place.

please mr. Rohner, if you are reading this, reconsider your ways. be open as you used to be.
let it all go... let go the Hang, there is no harm and you will feel better.

Good morning,

for the moment, I will only answer on your last posting, Victor. I must do some work, but later I have time to post my thoughts about other topics.



When you visit Panart the last time? What you post is hearsay. And your mission at the moment is very clear.
I was a few times in Bern and my last visit was not long time ago. A few weeks.
Nothing has changed. They are warm and welcome host.
Victor. We speak again, if you make every year 300-400 instruments and all people are coming and visit you to pick up the instrument.
Yes, you must close your doors for people without an appointment. Because you need time to make your work. Not only time, you need also privacy and peace.
For people with an appointment the door is wide open. Nothing has changed.




What means "inspiration". I think there is a difference between inspiration or simple theft. We can discuss this topic later, if you want. But I feel, that we will not find a agreement.


One quote not from your last posting, but a few postings before.



Yivtor. I understand, that your main reason to post here is not, because you realy are interested to hear my opinion. Maybe you think, that Panart read your words and you are on a mission to badmouth them, because you feel hurt? Maybe because they dont answer on your mails?
I was in Bern and there I read a very hard e-mail from you. If you dont remember, I can ask Felix, if he will send me this mail and I will forward this mail to you.
I use my google translator for the translation of the german word "Beleidigung". Here you have a number of words, how I will describe your mail.
"insult, affront, defamation, despite, floud, indignity, offense..." You can pick the word with the best translation.
I dont wonder, that they dont answer on your mails anymore. Nobody would do that, after such a fault in communication.
They have other thinks to do as making senseless discussions.

Only for the record. I understand realy well, what is going on. Please feel free to post anything you want. But remember the netiquette.

For the moment...

Frank

Hi Mr Levinson,

I've tried to follow this thread. But I can not figure out your motivation. I respect your attitude, but I'd be very interested to find out why you want to transfer your own conviction to a HANG? in my opinion, your indisputably great musical instrument, has nothing to do with the creation of PANArt. These are completely different developments, especially when taken into consideration, what is a FIH? under some circumstances you can use it to make music, I doubt whether it is suitable for this purpose. for my personal handle it is absolutely perfect. there is no ill-sounding, -if, then I do not look at the FIH - I am the trigger. that's what
i learned. but of course every1 is free to have his/her own opinion about the FIH usage. again, i doubt some1 to become happy with a FIH if used in a different manner (to be seen on youtube & co).

BR Frank

This is really worthy of consideration. The new video "Hang and Handpan Comparison" is a good example. If you listen to all the different Hanghang, you must come to the conclusion that the Free Hang is the worst of all. So I can really understand that Victor asked in the comments of the video whether the Free Hang dropped down before the recording. It really sounds like this in the recording. But regeldrei - obviously the owner of the recorded Free Hang - answered that this was not the case. On handpan.org some similar comments were posted saying "This FIH sounds out of tune" or "It makes my brain hurt".

For me it is quite impressive how both players who play the Free Hang in the video (who are experienced players) didn't feel comfortable when playing this instrument. David_K, one of the players, commented on handpan.org: "This takes a big toll on the instrument's overall resonance, and here the whole thing pecomes puzzling for me."

I think the playing technique and the special recording situation and the Free Hang didn't match in this video. The Free Hang needs another approach of playing to show its beauty.

For example: The players in the video didn't know what to do with the Ding. But the Ding is the center of Free Hang Playing. On the Ding you play Ding and Gu together and you can get the most touching sounds out of the Hang there. Nothing of this is in the video.

Another example: David_K speaks about the "big toll on the instrument's overall resonance" and in fact listening to the video there is a big toll. But the reason is not the Hang but the playing technique. It is possible to play the Free Hang with very great resonance as well as in a dry way.

So I really understand when people think the Free Hang is bad work when they know it only presented in the way as it is presented in the video. On the other hand owners of a Free Hang know that their instruments can sound very beautiful and touching.

What we can really learn from this video: If you are looking for a standard instrument that is able to produce the rhythms, melodies and chords you want to play, the Free Hang is not the instrument you need. You will be disappointed. If you are a percussionist (typical a multi instrumentalist) and want to apply your playing techniques to the Free Hang you will be disappointed too. If you are excited of all the youtube videos and want a Free Hang to do what you have seen players do on the videos, you will be disappointed.

The Free Hang is a good instrument for those who are ready for a challenge and who have no special ideas and interests what to do with it.

Michael,

i have read my last letter to them yeasterday and i can post it here if you dont mind.

there is a key words there: "quick money making"

is the phrase that they actaully addressed to my work in their letter to my friend.

"quick money making" that is how they called what i am doing. is that an insult?

if that is... then i wasnt the first one to do it...

but they have done it behind my back wich is much worse than to tell in a face, dont you think?

i have just returned their own words to them.

to you want me to post my letter, so we can discuss it?

I dont think, that private mails or letters should be post in public.

Frank

Michael,

i like the sound of regeldrei's FIH very much from what i have heard on youtube.

btw, if you run his videos through a pitch discrimination programm you will find that it is precisely tuned!

it is obvious that this FIH is not from regeldrei,

simple test is to run both instrument recordings side by side to check that out.

i will repeat again:

some FIH are tuned very precisely and some way off the wester standarts...

you asked for questions? here is one:

why?

Frank,

first of all this is my letter and i can do whatever i want with my words, dont you think?

but anyway, i have thought once more and i agree with you and this is not the place.

you still want to talk about tensions?

Frank, you dont understand me right... what i have ment is that they are not open to people for whom they used to be, but lets stop this - my head is allready full of this conversation.




actually i think we will find it at some of points. i have seen a few Bellarts lately and they look 100% identical to the Hang of 2nd gen. but legaly threating player is something i can not understand...




i have already told that i came here looking for a fight with Michael because of his "satisfying big demand" words on the hangblog. is that a correct way of expressing about something you dont know anything about?



please tell me, Frank! maybe i dont?


actually as you have mentioned about your opinion:

it is not quite true. i am VERY interested in what you are saying and i am tempting between having a fight as i intended to do and to have a fruitful discussion with you. the more i cool down the more i lean to the 2nd.

Dear mr. Pahle,

i have already explained my motivations: it is a strike back, strike back to Michael Paschko because of this:

http://www.hangblog.org/2011/02/16/info ... ment-13086

where Michael(to my opinion) is judjing the motivations of some makers by his "satisfying big demand" phrase, aswell as the whole post has a smell of judjments to my sense.

so i came here to give Michael a feel back, with perhaps a bit of emphasis.

i really hope i have "hitted the spot" or "rang a bell" with this.

this doesnt mean that my words are not serious, but otherwise would be left unspoken.

Victor, I am quite sure that the Free Hang in the video "Hang and Handpan Comparison" is the instrument of regeldrei.

In the comments of the video you ask:"Did you drop that FIH before recording?" And two days later regeldrei answered directly to your question: "My FIH is not fallen."

Here is a screenshot of your short discussion on YouTube:



If you compare the Free Hang in "Hang and Handpan Comparison" with regeldrei's Hang in this video, you can hear that both instruments have the same Ding.

Michael, am very confident that these are 2 different instruments.

i have just played 2 videos side by side and they are impossible to listen together.

also i know that the hang from David K. video is from december of 2011, regel's is much older.

i am still waiting for David K's input on this issue.

i will repeat again: i like regeldrei's instrument very much and i can listen to his videos for hours.

the other one doesnt touch me at all.

as for his comment: we are in touch with regedrei and he has a very interesting way expressing in English as he is not very good at the language and with a special humor.

knowing him a little i interpret his comment like this:

"all FIHs are different, mine is not like that one, Matt's Hang and playing is also good to my taste" something like that... but i will ask.

as a sidenote to this exact discussion, please tell me Michael have i managed in delivering you some of the feelings i got from reading your post on hangblog.org?

Yes, I also think that David is the one who can clarify this question.

No you didn't manage in delivering some of your feeling you got from reading my post on hangblog.org. If you want to comment something I wrote why don't you criticize directly me?

You posted in the topic "The free tuning of the Free Integral Hang" and by now I thought we discuss this topic.

By the way: In my comment on hangblog.org I neither wrote anything about the quality of your work nor the quality of the work of other handpan makers nor the quality of PANArt's work. So why do you begin a discussion about the quality of PANArt's work because of this comment?
And what is the problem with mentioning the big demand? Would any of the other instruments exist when this demand didn't exist? Or is this the problem that you would also build your instruments when the demand didn't exist? Why don't you reply on hangblog.org: "Michael I feel mispresented my work by you because I would also build my instruments without that big demand." And then the problem were solved.

i agree, it would be the best idea to do it that way. i am quite hot blooded, as you may noticed.

would they exist? i am sure some would, defenetly.

as to me: perhaps, if the Hang was freely available or Felix Rohner would tune my hang at some point, my life would go in another direction. but has that a direct connection to "satisfying big demand"? i dont think so. i was intrigued and facinated with what i could do to the metal with my hands when i first tried to tune my Panart Hang myself. that is how it started, no "big demand" in my mind to drive my passion.

now please understand me correct:

my ways, intentions are not "linear".

and i am interested in conversation about FIH aswell in expressing my critical view on some of its aspects. though i must admit that the way i presented it here mixed with my feeling for your opinion.

i have been folowing discussion about other makers intentions, critics for their work and so on for a quite a long time. and though i might agree with you at some point, i have a strong feeling that you opinion and judjements are somehow "narrow" or "flat"(no insults, i just kind find other words).

and you did mention the quality aspect of other tuners work in the past, i dont want to search for you earlier posts, maybe you better do it yourself.

any other tuners works is still a dedication: be it Kyle, Luis, me and some others too.


there are sings of that, wich perhaps you dont take in considiration.

and speaking in general about the "scene" and you presumtion of others intentions without going deep into the matter can hurt, do you realize that?

Hey guys,

the instrument is not from Regeldrei. I'd not go into too much detail about the instrument and its owner to avoid getting her into trouble if she ever needs a repair.