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this is quite true. Playing this particular FIH actually made me feel uncomfortable. I had a similar feeling like when playing on a guitar where the frets are not placed correctly (in German we say it's not "bundrein").
It felt constantly out of tune which I personally find stressful and unpleasant.



Michael, I hope we find a chance to meet some day and you can show me this in person.
In my experience with Handpans/Soundscultptures/Hang and other instruments, the more an instrument is "in tune" in the traditional sense, the more the overall resonance improves because the different notes activate (and resonte with) each other. I have seen this also on two of my Hanghang that Victor retuned. After the retune the sound opened up, the overall resonance of the instruments improved. They resonated stronger and more harmoniously.

The FIH I had for the video was pretty far away from the tempered tuning, or any other systematic tuning system. When playing several tone fields together, there was a strong beating and impression of disharmony (for me).
The owner of this FIH has no musical background and told me that she doesn't perceive the instrument as out of tune. But she said that something was bugging her about certain notes, she didn't find them pleasant. Interestingly those were the notes that were most "off" the traditional intervals and in some cases also the two overtones on a tone field itself were not traditionally "in tune".

Since I was already quoted earlier in this thread I'll add my 2 cents about the general subject as well:

It is not my intention to bash the concept of the FIH in general. I think after recording the video and also reading through the whole thread about TouchesMySoul's cancelled invitation, I started to understand a bit more about it. It is a radical step, that is for sure.
I think there is a group of people for whom the concept actually works. (Frank and Michael, if I understand correctly, you would not want to exchange your FIH for a traditionally tuned instrument, right?)
In most cases though I think if you would give a person two instruments next to each other to choose from, one with "free" tuning, and one tuned with exact relations between tones and overtones, the person would perceive the traditionally tuned instrument as more pleasant and harmonious, no matter if this person has a musical background or not. This would probably be less obvious for FIH that are closer to the traditional tuning, and more obvious for FIH as far off as the one I had for the recording. My friend who owns the FIH from the video is only one example.




I agree with this and I think this is a good point that can help solve some of the frustration that people have with PanArt. PanArt stopped making musical instruments when switching from IH to FIH. If you are a musician, the FIH is probably not interesting for you.

Hello David,

Quite the contrary. I just gave back one of my second Generation Hanghang to Panart. In exchange I could pick up a Free Hang. The second Generation was an absolute in tune , wonderfull Hang.
I have another second generation and also an Integral Hang here at home. Since I own the Free Integral Hang, i play 90 % on this Hang. It is much more lively as my other Hanghang. Dont understand me wrong. The other Hanghang are also beautifull and dynamic Hanghang. Tuning is "perfect". If you use a strobe tuner.
If I use only my feeling and my ears, the Integral Hang sounds more and more "steril" for my feeling. It is much more interesting to play with the Free Hang.
I have the choice. Anytime.

Frank

Frank, I think David meant it the other way round. So you both meant the same.

There is always one line that keeps vansishing away during conversation:

why there are FIH out there that are tuned almost precisely? and others that sound very off to my ears?

the second thing i would love to clear out:

Michael, Frank,

lets hear you FIHs! and not only your playing(wich i would appriciate) but the instruments played up and down aswell or even better each note inividually.

who knows, maybe for me they would sound like the best Hanghang out there too. lets try and see!

Victor,

I dont beliefe, that a Hang should be played tone by tone. Of course it is no problem, but that says not much about the quality of the special Hang.
Hang is not about isolated notes. Together it works and you have a dynamic , rich sound.
I am also not a friend of youtube videos. You could hear only your pc loudspeaker. This has not much to do with the sound of the Hang.

I invite you in my home. Come on. Play the Hang. Be my guest. I am a very good cooking man. You can stay here for 1-2 nights.
I think it is possible to find a date, where also Michael can join, with his Free Hang.

I have only one request. Please dont bring a tuner. There is nothing on the Hang, to find out with a tuner.
And let you hammer at home Not anything on my Hang is looking smooth.

The most people I met the last time are saying, my Free Hang has a "warmer" and "fuller" sound and they like the Free Hang more as the
other Hanghang. Of course, only a handfull good friends and my family listen me playing. I never played the Free Hang in public, until now.

By the way. This inviting is also for David K.

Frank

Frank,

thank you!

i have no visa now, when i am going to be in Germany - we will meet, but mind you i am a vegetarian

i invite you aswell(and Michael too): you can stay at my house 1-3 nights. se how tune - play some of my instruments - see how i tune - try to tune yourself with my help(i trust you will manage).

Saint-Petersburg is a nice place to visit in June(though i live outside of the city now)

back to the FIH topic:

what we all forget about in our conversation is that FIH is now made of a new material. wich now doesnt have a ferritic layer inside.

it means that it is not right to compare it with any older models in terms of sound qualities.

it makes more sense to compare a precisely tuned new metal Hang with a Free tuned one.

now one question slips away from the conversation again:

why some FIHs sound better(and perhaps yours Michael and Frank) than some others?

and mind you not only to my ears! it is a general statistics i am witnessing.

for ex regeldrei's Hang sounds just fantastic and very touching and i know what he had to do to make it sound like that - a 3 hour talk with Felix Rohner to convience him to tune it more.

to clarify:

i like the idea of Free tuning very much.

and btw, i also use my ears to adjust some tones/overtones relation to step a bit off the strobe readings when i feel that precise tuning is not very good for overal sound.

what i cant understand is why results should be "unstable" in what i can call "quality" aspects.

What is precisely and what is almost precisely? This formulation implicates that the "almost precise" instruments are much better than the "very off" instruments but if they would be "precise" instead of "almost precise" they would be even better.

This approach and the free tuning doesn't match.

At the risk of appearing annoying I want to quote my text again that I wrote for the German Wikipedia:

"The central focus of the free tuning are not the mathematically exact frequency ratios of the partials of a sound field, but the effect [German: Wirkung - This term has some connotations I am not able to translate] of sound. Even the steelpan tuners of Trinidad used slight detuning of the partials in order to achieve a distinctive sound character of their own instruments. Anthony Achong has demonstrated in an acoustically-mathematical analysis, that this detuning is the most important parameter influencing the duration of the partials, as well as amplitude and frequency modulations in the structure of a steel pan tone. The absence of the tuning device at Free Integral Hang tuning allows the Hang tuners to use these parameters consequently and to focus on the design [German: Gestaltung - This term has some connotations I am not able to translate] of the sound during the tuning process."

Our German readers will find the more precise German original here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_(Musikinstrument)#Freies_Integrales_Hang

So the answer is: The instruments you perceive as "very off" are as precise as those you perceive as "almost precise" because both are intended to sound as they sound. If you go with a Free Hang that is in your perception "very off" to PANArt, Felix Rohner or Sabina Schärer would take it, play it and tell you: It is as it is intended. I cannot make it better. If you feel not comfortable with it exchange it for another one that match better with you.

I think it is important to understand that the instruments you perceive as "very off" are not failures or bad tuning. The concept of free tuning is quite different to the concept of tuning you are used to.

Now I can hear you saying: But this doesn't make sense. The "very off" instruments sound ugly. Where is the beauty?

Here I cannot help you with a theoretical answer. The way with your Free Hang is a very individual one. You can find the beauty of your special Hang only if you follow your personal journey. This may need a lot of time (or not). It is not possible to find the beauty of a Free Hang in three days using tuning devices and trying to analyze the single tones. On my Free Hang there is one tone I find it is the most challenging. If I play it isolated I will find only problems. If I played it for you I am sure you would say: Yes there is big problem with the cavity resonance, the tone cannot oscillate freely. If I would try to analyze this tone more and more, the problem would grow more and more. But over time I have learned to do something else: I play this tone more sensitively than any other tone of this Hang. I follow him how he wants to be played. I integrate him in the sculpture of sounds that is arising when my hand gestures touch the Hang. I look to find out how other tones can help him. And then in some moments this special tone that perhaps is better looked at as a voice in a choir begin to become the most touching voice among the others.

This is my general advise for Free Hang playing: Analyzing doesn't help. It is a blind alley and will lead you only to problems and will frustrate you. You must follow the same path the Hang tuners followed when they laid the strobo tuner aside.

This said I think it is possible that there are Free Hanghang that you don't like, that doesn't give you the opportunity to match with. [Additional edit: So the only solution for you is to choose another one] When I chose my Free Hang in summer 2010 I played a number of instruments that confused me and that I had never taken. I think it would be a very interesting experiment and experience to take such a Hang for some months and to find out whether I am able to find its beauty.




Recording with the Free Hang is very tricky. I think of that for a while now but by now I hesitate. Free Hang playing is for me something very personal and a recording setting is one of the most inappropriate setting to get in touch with ones Free Hang which is necessary to play it in a satisfying way. We will see whether I will try it. But what I would never do is to play isolated tones for you. This wouldn't make any sense (we can hear this in the "Hang and Handpan Comparison" video). You would either say: It is "almost precise" or you would say it is "very" or "a little" "off". You would say: "Here we can hear the cavity resonance problem." And then? This wouldn't help to understand more about the free tuning.

Sounds like an interesting evening to me.

on thing Michael:

i only checked the tuning of the FIH once, with little effort to analyze.

most of time i had just played it, trying to combine sounds in one as you say it.

here is my thought that just stroke:

if i couldnt find it in 3days, how can somebody find it for a few hours at the workshop in Bern?

what if first 150 people will take the "best" FIH, what is left for other 50?

Hi Michael, I do 100% agree with you and there's little I could add. Your description is excellent, but it took me months, and I'm still at at a very low level of understanding the FIH.
Other who may not be familiar with the view of the free tuning could fail interpreting it or even rate it in missunderstood way.
Sorry Mr. Levinson, your personal approach is absolutely perfect, because you choosed your very own way. It seems that you were not satisfied by a Hang. you believe in yourself, your skills and especially your freedom. Well, same with me. Fortunately I met the FIH that saved me a lot of time and hammer work. Just kidding, i don't have any rudimentary knowledge in metal forming, but i know about me and my search for personal freedom.
Your creations sound beautiful when played by artists like Mr.Kuckhermann, he's a GREAT musician, but could it ever suit me? Nope, waste of your time, there are many others, make them happy with your work and leave PANArt's FIH what it is - different!

Best regards,
Frank

you are right, but should it work the other way around too? from Panart's side?

as i have said i am fine with FIH, unless someone will try to tell me what it is and what it is not.

is it an advancement over earlier Hang? i can not defenetly say that it is.

btw, i wounder mr Pahle would you be comfortable with any FIH coming from Panarts workshop. that is a good question and i am glad that finaly Michael thought about it too.

Hopefully everyone will take his/her personally best. None of them will stay in Bern, because
of inferior quality, but to await those who use the very best of it.
When I visited their manufacture, i was deeply impressed by a Hang when played by Mr.Rohner. I was 100% sure that's the right One, what a beautiful sound. Far from reality,
When i gave it a try, it wasn't the right. It didn't touch me. All of them are individuals, so we are.

Best Regards

Frank

Victor,

there are different times a year, where people are invited to pick up there Hang.
And there are ever much more Hanghang as visitors.
Nobody is forced to pick up a Hang, what he/she dont like.
And if he/she has after some time the feeling he/she made a mistake, The Hangmakers will have an open ear.
Maybe we should have in mind, that the most people who visit Panart, or seek a Hang are not active members on any open web forum.
The big number of members on this and any other forum (like handpan.org) say nothing.
The most "members" have no postings.
There are thousands of letters in Bern from people who just searching a Free Integral Hang.
Every year a few hundret Hanghang leave the workshop and the people are absolute happy.
A few people have problems with Panart. Only a handfull, for different reasons. Unfortunally those people are crying very loud on the internet.
There are now a few hundret people who are playing the Free Hang. It seems, that the absolute minority have found, what they are searching.
In these days is a lot of peace on the Hanghouse. The Hangmakers are making Hanghang, invite people, people visit the Hanghouse...happy Hangplayers leave the hanghouse and start to play the Hang in freedom.
Only for the record... If I look on handpan.org these days, it seems that there is something big out of balance. But it is not. Only the same people are crying again and again....

David. I will send you a PM the next days.

Frank

I think you can definitely say that: It is not - for you. If you asked me I would advise you to travel to Russia and buy one the SPB instead of trying to get a Free Hang.



No Victor, this is a false conclusion from my postings. I don't agree with you that half of the Free Hanghang are bad work.

oh, lol



no Michael, you got me wrong again! i was saying that i am happy that you got an idea to take a FIH that doesnt touch you from first sight to try to find the beauty in it. it would be a nice experience.

did i say half? i have seen only 1, heard maybe 10 on youtube... how can i speak about half? i used word "some".
did i ever use word "bad"? can you point that out to me? i used words rushed or unaccurate.

why didnt you ask me: Victor do you happen to be unaccurate for some reasons in your work? for expample when you dont feel good yourself? you would get a positive answer: yes Michael that happens to me sometimes, and i leave it roughly looking with indentings or other visual imperfections.

you are lucky

you mean majority, right?



I hear you Frank, i will think about it.

Yes, majority. Thank you.

David, thinking about this passage of your posting I found that there is an aspect of instruments like the Hang that we should consider: To provide possibilities of expression in a wide range you need some measure of resonance but not a maximum of resonance. If you have to much resonance player and listener are drowned in a sort of resonance overflow (by the way, I think it was not a good idea to add reverb to the sound of the Hang and Handpan Comparison video because it makes it impossible to experience the typical resonance character of each instrument and partly masks the differences between the instruments). Therefor the Hang tuners doesn't aim at a maximum of resonance but at the right measure of resonance. And the right measure is the requirement of the player who want to design the sound while playing.

The Integral Hang was a main step in controlling the measure of resonance and the free tuning adds a further improvement to this development.

And there is something else to consider: Oscillating shallow shells in a steel vessel doesn't behave like strings. If you have a number of strings like in the piano they will resonate which each other the more the more precise they are tuned to the same pitch (or in a harmonic interval like the quint).

The modes in a steelpan or Hang tone field behave in another way. Anthony Achong shows in the article I have referred to that the resonance goes to a minimum when they are tuned exactly 1:2:3 because in this case there is maximum of energy transfer from the fundamental to the higher partials. Therefor the Trinidadian tuners he watched tune them slightly away from the exact frequency ratios to find their personal optimum and a characteristic dynamic curve of the tone. Detuning influences the energy transfer between the modes. Achong demonstrates this effect in his mathematical model of a steelpan tone.